ECT What race was Abraham before faith?

[Interplanner]

The apostles struggled to get their people back to faith alone as the defining feature. After all, what race was Abraham before he believed? Persian/Iranian.

D'ist 2P2P is the continuation of Judaism rather than the repudiation of it, and still thinks, archaically, that the race matters.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

D'ist 2P2P is the continuation of Judaism rather than the repudiation of it, and still thinks, archaically, that the race matters.

Lie.

 

[oatmeal]

The apostles struggled to get their people back to faith alone as the defining feature. After all, what race was Abraham before he believed? Persian/Iranian.

D'ist 2P2P is the continuation of Judaism rather than the repudiation of it, and still thinks, archaically, that the race matters.

He was always a Gentile

 

[Danoh]

He was always a Gentile

A Hebrew Gentile.

Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

Acts 17:11,12.

 

[genuineoriginal]

What race was Abraham before faith?

Human race.

 

[Wick Stick]

The apostles struggled to get their people back to faith alone as the defining feature. After all, what race was Abraham before he believed? Persian/Iranian.

According to Deuteronomy, the Israelites of Moses day identified themselves as being of Syrian descent:

Deu 26:5
And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:

This is consistent with accounts of Abraham's father and brothers living in Haran.

As for Abe himself, he apparently lived in Ur for some time, which has made most people historically think that he may have been Chaldean.

To your final point - race used to matter, but nowadays all believers undergo adoption as sons, which makes heredity a moot point.

 

[Wick Stick]

A Hebrew Gentile.

Genesis 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

Acts 17:11,12.

The word Hebrew probably derives from Abraham's name. Saying that he was Hebrew falls into the category of tautology.

 

[Danoh]

The word Hebrew probably derives from Abraham's name. Saying that he was Hebrew falls into the category of tautology.

:chuckle:

Too much time in the Scripture, I suppose - the Scripture is ever repeating a thought in different words within a same passage.

Still, you remain one of the few on here who's exacting detail I am often impressed by.

Yours is a trait I have run across in very few of my own over the years.

:chuckle: Makes me wonder how you missed the obvious - that Three-Fold Principle the Apostle Paul is not only ever depicted throughout his writings basing much on, but that he bases his understanding of God's plan and purpose on, in general, in Ephesians 2's - Past; Now; and the Ages to Come.

Rom. 14:5 towards you - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Danoh]

According to Deuteronomy, the Israelites of Moses day identified themselves as being of Syrian descent:

Deu 26:5
And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:

This is consistent with accounts of Abraham's father and brothers living in Haran.

As for Abe himself, he apparently lived in Ur for some time, which has made most people historically think that he may have been Chaldean.

To your final point - race used to matter, but nowadays all believers undergo adoption as sons, which makes heredity a moot point.

Well there goes my compliment to you in my prior post - right out the window :chuckle:

Body members are not adopted - see the Spoiler below.

Which is why Paul goes on about the purpose behind the properly instructed SON.

Spoiler

That the Believer's standing and his state align...

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Galatains 4 is using Israel's one day yet future, promised Bar Mitzvah - their promised adoption - wherein they will be acknowledged by God as a nation that is no more children, but Sons - Paul is using that as an analogy he then applies to Body members - to already saved people; to people already in the Lord, to people already SONS.

Which is who the Galatians already were. Adult SONS in Christ.

Much in that chapter is literal but Paul makes use of it figuratively, because the principles he is drawing out are spiritual.

Their principle is the same, but their application differs.

Spiritual Principles he then makes use of in his descriptions of this New SPIRITUAL Creature IN Christ: The Body of Christ.

This New Creature is not adopted.

Paul is acknowledging his being NOW an ADULT Son - THIS is the adoption Paul is going on about.

Because the New Creature is in Christ; and Christ IS a Son.

No more "baby Jesus." No more Christ after the flesh, and what that had represented.

In contrast, Israel's adoption as SONS; when they will be acknowledged by God as A NATION that is no more children, but SONS, is yet future.

Only their Believing Remnant had had the privelege of a FORETASTE of that - THEIR "world to come" - THIS side of the Cross...

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Here were some of them..

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

And yet, because theirs is a yet future, NATIONAL Sonship, we read...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Study that out, before you disagree with it. :thumb:

Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Wick Stick]

Well there goes my compliment to you in my prior post - right out the window :chuckle:

Body members are not adopted - see the Spoiler below.

Which is why Paul goes on about the purpose behind the properly instructed SON.

Spoiler

That the Believer's standing and his state align...

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Galatains 4 is using Israel's one day yet future, promised Bar Mitzvah - their promised adoption - wherein they will be acknowledged by God as a nation that is no more children, but Sons - Paul is using that as an analogy he then applies to Body members - to already saved people; to people already in the Lord, to people already SONS.

Which is who the Galatians already were. Adult SONS in Christ.

Much in that chapter is literal but Paul makes use of it figuratively, because the principles he is drawing out are spiritual.

Their principle is the same, but their application differs.

Spiritual Principles he then makes use of in his descriptions of this New SPIRITUAL Creature IN Christ: The Body of Christ.

This New Creature is not adopted.

Paul is acknowledging his being NOW an ADULT Son - THIS is the adoption Paul is going on about.

Because the New Creature is in Christ; and Christ IS a Son.

No more "baby Jesus." No more Christ after the flesh, and what that had represented.

In contrast, Israel's adoption as SONS; when they will be acknowledged by God as A NATION that is no more children, but SONS, is yet future.

Only their Believing Remnant had had the privelege of a FORETASTE of that - THEIR "world to come" - THIS side of the Cross...

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Here were some of them..

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

And yet, because theirs is a yet future, NATIONAL Sonship, we read...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Study that out, before you disagree with it. :thumb:

Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8.

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I know it takes time to do such a thing. I am a little unsure of your theology. I think you come from a Mid-Acts background, but you seem different from the others of that ilk.

You will find it hard to convince me on this point. There are two main points on which my theology is different than, well... most people. I will summarize, and I think you'll see why.

The first is the separation of Israel and Judah. Many believers are not even aware that the country split in two in Old Testament times. Those who are aware of it at all, tend to regard it as historical trivia. I find that it is pivotal - the key to understanding the Old Testament.

In the same way that one might divide the New Testament into Scriptures for Jews, vs Scriptures for the Church, the Old Testament can be divided. There are Scriptures for Judah. There are Scriptures for Israel. They operated on different dispensations. God dealt with them separately, and differently.

When Israel went astray, they were divorced. (Jer 3) Afterwards, they were destroyed, to the point God the prophets call them "not a people." (Lo Ammi - Hosea)

When Judah sinned, they were chastened. They went into captivity, but their captivity was returned. You know this story.

The second is baptism. I believe it originated as an adoption ceremony. Let me try to connect those dots...

Remember how Israel (NOT Judah) was destroyed? Well the prophets say that Israel (still not Judah) will be resurrected. Ezekiel's dry bones being clothed with flesh and skin is a one prophecy of this, but there are many of them in the OT. Of particular note, is God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Many Nations." That word nations is Goyim - usually it's translated as Gentiles.

So then, who was Jesus' ministry aimed at? Not Judah! Jesus attests that His mission was to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Why were Jesus' disciples baptizing? They were adopting Gentiles to become the new House of Israel. As for the Jews... Jesus interactions with them were far from friendly. He insulted their paternity at every opportunity, calling them sons of vipers and a generation of snakes, and "your father is the devil."

What of the Body of Christ? It is one and the same thing as the House of Israel. Separate from the Jews? Yes. Under the Old Covenant? No... Covenants end at death, and Israel died.

Seeing then that adoption occupies a central piece of my theology, it would take quite some doing to change my view. You would first have to convince me of a whole new chronology of the Old Testament, and theory of what the OT prophets were talking about, and who they were talking to.

 

[Danoh]

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I know it takes time to do such a thing. I am a little unsure of your theology. I think you come from a Mid-Acts background, but you seem different from the others of that ilk.

You will find it hard to convince me on this point. There are two main points on which my theology is different than, well... most people. I will summarize, and I think you'll see why.

The first is the separation of Israel and Judah. Many believers are not even aware that the country split in two in Old Testament times. Those who are aware of it at all, tend to regard it as historical trivia. I find that it is pivotal - the key to understanding the Old Testament.

In the same way that one might divide the New Testament into Scriptures for Jews, vs Scriptures for the Church, the Old Testament can be divided. There are Scriptures for Judah. There are Scriptures for Israel. They operated on different dispensations. God dealt with them separately, and differently.

When Israel went astray, they were divorced. (Jer 3) Afterwards, they were destroyed, to the point God the prophets call them "not a people." (Lo Ammi - Hosea)

When Judah sinned, they were chastened. They went into captivity, but their captivity was returned. You know this story.

The second is baptism. I believe it originated as an adoption ceremony. Let me try to connect those dots...

Remember how Israel (NOT Judah) was destroyed? Well the prophets say that Israel (still not Judah) will be resurrected. Ezekiel's dry bones being clothed with flesh and skin is a one prophecy of this, but there are many of them in the OT. Of particular note, is God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Many Nations." That word nations is Goyim - usually it's translated as Gentiles.

So then, who was Jesus' ministry aimed at? Not Judah! Jesus attests that His mission was to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Why were Jesus' disciples baptizing? They were adopting Gentiles to become the new House of Israel. As for the Jews... Jesus interactions with them were far from friendly. He insulted their paternity at every opportunity, calling them sons of vipers and a generation of snakes, and "your father is the devil."

What of the Body of Christ? It is one and the same thing as the House of Israel. Separate from the Jews? Yes. Under the Old Covenant? No... Covenants end at death, and Israel died.

Seeing then that adoption occupies a central piece of my theology, it would take quite some doing to change my view. You would first have to convince me of a whole new chronology of the Old Testament, and theory of what the OT prophets were talking about, and who they were talking to.

I go by the distinction between the two that Paul points out in Romans 4.

THAT is "the history" I go by.

And that, THIS SIDE of Romans 1:18-3:20 and Romans 9-11.

Which is NO man "after the flesh." 2 Cor. 5:16.

Rom. 14: 5; 5:6-8 towards ya.

 

[DAN P]

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I know it takes time to do such a thing. I am a little unsure of your theology. I think you come from a Mid-Acts background, but you seem different from the others of that ilk.

You will find it hard to convince me on this point. There are two main points on which my theology is different than, well... most people. I will summarize, and I think you'll see why.

The first is the separation of Israel and Judah. Many believers are not even aware that the country split in two in Old Testament times. Those who are aware of it at all, tend to regard it as historical trivia. I find that it is pivotal - the key to understanding the Old Testament.

In the same way that one might divide the New Testament into Scriptures for Jews, vs Scriptures for the Church, the Old Testament can be divided. There are Scriptures for Judah. There are Scriptures for Israel. They operated on different dispensations. God dealt with them separately, and differently.

When Israel went astray, they were divorced. (Jer 3) Afterwards, they were destroyed, to the point God the prophets call them "not a people." (Lo Ammi - Hosea)

When Judah sinned, they were chastened. They went into captivity, but their captivity was returned. You know this story.

The second is baptism. I believe it originated as an adoption ceremony. Let me try to connect those dots...

Remember how Israel (NOT Judah) was destroyed? Well the prophets say that Israel (still not Judah) will be resurrected. Ezekiel's dry bones being clothed with flesh and skin is a one prophecy of this, but there are many of them in the OT. Of particular note, is God's promise to Abraham to make him a "Father of Many Nations." That word nations is Goyim - usually it's translated as Gentiles.

So then, who was Jesus' ministry aimed at? Not Judah! Jesus attests that His mission was to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Why were Jesus' disciples baptizing? They were adopting Gentiles to become the new House of Israel. As for the Jews... Jesus interactions with them were far from friendly. He insulted their paternity at every opportunity, calling them sons of vipers and a generation of snakes, and "your father is the devil."

What of the Body of Christ? It is one and the same thing as the House of Israel. Separate from the Jews? Yes. Under the Old Covenant? No... Covenants end at death, and Israel died.

Seeing then that adoption occupies a central piece of my theology, it would take quite some doing to change my view. You would first have to convince me of a whole new chronology of the Old Testament, and theory of what the OT prophets were talking about, and who they were talking to.

Hi and consider this first !~

#1 , What does NEW TESTAMENT MEAN ??

#2 , TESTAMENT / DIATHEKE is a transliterated word and van be translated by the following words :

TESTAMENT

COVENANT

COMPACT

WILL

AGREEMENT

#2 Even , Matthew-- Acts are to be considered OT !!

#3 We see Jesus Himself preaching to Samaritans in John 4:9 and tells her " that salvation is of the Jews , which includes those from Samaria !!

#4 We know from Ezek 37:7 , that the stick from Israel and the STICK from Judah will again become ONE STICK and be One Nation in the Millennial Kingdom !!

#5, Where is a verse that shows that WATER BAPTISM is a CEREMONY ??

#, What does Heb 10:9 Diver Washing / BAPTISMOS mean ?

#What does Eph 4:5 , one BAPTISM / BAPTISMA mean here ??

What doe Acts 19:4 what does BAPTIZED / BAPTISMA and a BAPTISM / BAPTIZO of Repentance mean here ??

dan p