ECT What "Law" is this that Paul refers to?

[Cross Reference]

Oh, okay

something akin to an "age of accountability" might be involved

Yes. We really don't know all there is to know when sorting through all that about a person, do we? We really don't know when "once" was, in the saying of Paul.

Point is we need to understand what the two laws Paul is referring to I believe are not what we have taken to believe to be the written/Mosaic law. Try to reconcile vs 23 to see what I am driving at.

 

[Anto9us]

Rom 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Rom 7:23

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


Rom 7:24

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Rom 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Definitely more "laws" than just the Torah going on...

 

[Anto9us]

But the conclusion at the end of verse 25 is kind of negative to me -- sort of antinominan -- sort of "continue in sin so grace can abound"; which Paul said elsewhere 'No we don't want to do that'

"Two Laws" are contrasted somewhere else

the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
and
the law of sin and death

and somewhere else it says the Gentiles who have not the Law "are a law unto themselves...

and anyway, how can a person "below the age of accountability" be said to have been already in a state where "sin wrought all manner of concupiscence" in them?

I think it is very true what Peter wrote of "our brother Paul's writings" -- that in them are some things hard to be understood.

 

[God's Truth]

Thank you, GT.



But I am looking for words that justify the phrase:

"when very young"




Therefore, was I alive without the law of God,


when very young:


leaving me with a lack of guilt for sin but, when the understanding of His commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9 (KJV)

It is about a young person.

Paul says the law with its do's and don'ts teach one about sins and makes one want to sin.

The scriptures also say that the old law was based on fear, so that a person would not sin.

 

[chrysostom]

I think it is very true what Peter wrote of "our brother Paul's writings" -- that in them are some things hard to be understood.

this is true
but
one thing we do know
is
paul's biggest problem was with judaizers
and
that was all about mosaic law

 

[God's Truth]

this is true
but
one thing we do know
is
paul's biggest problem was with judaizers
and
that was all about mosaic law

Paul's teaching were hard to understand because the people misunderstand him, as they do the other scriptures.

People thought Paul was teaching we only have to believe and not obey.

Paul taught that we only have to believe that Jesus' blood cleans us and we no longer have to obey the old ceremonial works that say to be circumcised and sacrifice animals.

Peter says people misunderstand Paul (about faith and no works). Right after Peter says that, he warns us to obey. See 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

 

[Cross Reference]

Rom 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [law of fleshly instincts perfectly legal unless illegally put into practice.

Rom 7:24

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Rom 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ergo, the only two laws mean to be understood in Romans 7. Take your time in sorting them out as Paul makes his thinking known about his own personal experiences that let to his understanding as we read it from him.

Definitely more "laws" than just the Torah going on...

Absolutely! All one has to do is a little "self-examination" that will conclude in thanking God for Paul's conclusion to the matter. Rom. 8:1-2ff, our Spiritual Promised Land!" . . . .

 

[Anto9us]

2Pe 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,

but that all should come to repentance.

2Pe 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall

melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


2Pe 3:12

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt

with fervent heat?


2Pe 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2Pe 3:14

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


2Pe 3:15

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath

written unto you;


2Pe 3:16

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of

these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,

which they that are unlearned

and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Anto9us]

"Peter says people misunderstand Paul (about faith and no works)."

I don't think "faith vs works" was the only area Peter found 'sticky wickets' in -- concerning Paul's writings

Peter's original whole context in that chapter was Parousia Delay and END TIMES STUFF

Paul writes of certain END TIMES stuff that the Olivet Discourse and book of Revelation do not cover - like the "Restrainer" holding back 'the man of sin'

IMO -- the 'hard to be understood' stuff in Paul is not just

1. faith vs works
but
2. end times
and
3. predestination

"the other scriptures" is sort of misleading in English -- it makes it sound like Peter considered Paul's epistles as already-recognized canonical works -- way before a canon of NT was set

it is just "writings" - Gr graphain

 

[God's Truth]

"Peter says people misunderstand Paul (about faith and no works)."

I don't think "faith vs works" was the only area Peter found 'sticky wickets' in -- concerning Paul's writings

Peter's original whole context in that chapter was Parousia Delay and END TIMES STUFF

Paul writes of certain END TIMES stuff that the Olivet Discourse and book of Revelation do not cover - like the "Restrainer" holding back 'the man of sin'

IMO -- the 'hard to be understood' stuff in Paul is not just

1. faith vs works
but
2. end times
and
3. predestination

"the other scriptures" is sort of misleading in English -- it makes it sound like Peter considered Paul's epistles as already-recognized canonical works -- way before a canon of NT was set

it is just "writings" - Gr graphain

There is only one gospel, one message that saves.

John the baptizer taught it, Jesus Christ while on earth taught it, Peter and all the Twelve Apostles to the Lamb taught it, and Paul taught it.

PETER SAYS people misunderstand Paul as they do the other SCRIPTURES.

They all taught the same gospel message.

 

[Cross Reference]

But the conclusion at the end of verse 25 is kind of negative to me -- sort of antinominan -- sort of "continue in sin so grace can abound"; which Paul said elsewhere 'No we don't want to do that'

"Do you mean we should think it OK to continue to let our flesh rule us just so can God will have another opportunity to once again, forgive us"?

"Two Laws" are contrasted somewhere else

the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
and
the law of sin and death
and somewhere else it says the Gentiles who have not the Law "are a law unto themselves...

So much for the Mosaic law.

and anyway, how can a person "below the age of accountability" be said to have been already in a state where "sin wrought all manner of concupiscence" in them?

The law of the flesh is the law of self-preservation in whatever form it manifests itself. Sin [lust] takes advantage of that and 'lies'/makes excuses to convince its victim it's OK to write his own permission slip. . . and then one day he "sits at the feet of his 'Gamaliel'" to learn a few things about life..and what it means to be born again.

I think it is very true what Peter wrote of "our brother Paul's writings" -- that in them are some things hard to be understood.

I have wrestled with this chapter for years.

 

[chrysostom]

to understand paul and the law
you must know about

Judaizers

 

[Cross Reference]

to understand paul and the law
you must know about

Judaizers

Not if you let Romans 7 and 8 speak for themselves.

 

[God's Truth]

"the other scriptures" is sort of misleading in English -- it makes it sound like Peter considered Paul's epistles as already-recognized canonical works -- way before a canon of NT was set

it is just "writings" - Gr graphain

Peter does show us that Paul's writings are scripture.

The New Testament teachings were by letter and books right from the beginning.

In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture.

In addition, we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.

 

[Cross Reference]

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23 (KJV)

Compare with:

"For the creature [Adam] was made subject to vanity [law of the flesh], not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself [Adam] also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:20-21 (KJV)

How that is accomplished is by men "who walk not after the[ir] flesh, but after the Spirit". Romans 8:1 (KJV) Men who are in Christ Jesus and live by His Faith! Gal 2:20 KJV.

 

[God's Truth]

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23 (KJV)

Compare with:

"For the creature [Adam] was made subject to vanity [law of the flesh], not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself [Adam] also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:20-21 (KJV)

How that is accomplished is by men "who walk not after the[ir] flesh, but after the Spirit". Romans 8:1 (KJV) Men who are in Christ Jesus and live by His Faith! Gal 2:20 KJV.

Like what Paul says in Romans 7:15 about a man without faith in God:

Romans 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.


The man without faith cannot do the good he wants to do, only the bad.


Now read what Paul says about the saved man:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.


The saved man does not do the bad that he used to want to do.

 

[Cross Reference]

The saved man does not do the bad that he used to want to do.

I would say, by what Paul writes, "it depends on what you feed", that the whole issue is determined..

Finish this: "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose . . . . "

 

[God's Truth]

I would say, by what Paul writes, "it depends on what you feed", that whole issue is determined..

I thought you would enjoy my commenting on what you posted.

Are you saying this because you agree to what I said, or that you do not agree?

Could you give a scripture reference of Paul saying that? Where does Paul write that?

 

[Anto9us]

WHOSE MIND IS STAYED ON THEE

 

[Cross Reference]

I thought you would enjoy my commenting on what you posted.

Are you saying this because you agree to what I said, or that you do not agree?

Could you give a scripture reference of Paul saying that? Where does Paul write that?

How 'bout I would have written it this way for better understanding:

"I would say, by everything what Paul writes, it depends on what you feed that the whole issue is determined.."