Hi Jerry I never said that unblievers are ever BAPTIZO / PLACED into the B O C !!
dan p
ECT What Kind of Death?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Hi Jerry I never said that unblievers are ever BAPTIZO / PLACED into the B O C !!
dan p
Nope.
He is saying that in the Body, the Jew or Gentile, Bond or Free distinctions were no more.
The flow of Paul's thought on the actual issue as to that is the same throughout that Epistle.
They were "not discerning the Lord's Body" remember?
"Yet carnal" they were.
Their focus on the distinctions between things that those of the world focus on...
"Now we know no man after the flesh."
While, I'm at it - please don't tell me you are you one of those who also erroneously does NOT hold to the Lord's Table / Communion / Supper...
In remembrance towards you, Jerry - of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, in the Body distinctions between the two is removed.
But Paul did not cease being a Jew even though he was in the Body of Christ:
"But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people" (Acts 21:39).
Too bad you wern't around back then so you could have corrected what Paul said.
What is this tic tac Bible?
:chuckle:
Anyway, I was around back then - through the Word...
1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Acts 17: 11, 12
Hi Jerry and the Holy Spirit also says about Paul, in Phil 3:6 , concerning the LAW , FAULTLESS , does not mean Paul was a LAW KEEPER !!
dan p
You forget Paul asserts that back when he was persecuting the Little Flock, he was in unbelief.
Meaning that his having been a Pharisee of the Pharisees above many of his own equals; his faultlessness concerning the Law had been that of outward ritual.
As pleasing men...not as pleasing God.
He followed Moses.
But he did not actually believe Moses.
His circumcision made uncircumcision.
Within...dead man's bones.
But for - you guessed it - Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead - including...Paul's.
Lol - I've forgotten far more about these things than I care to.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what was the meaning of his words at Phil.3:6?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul remained a Jew in his own mind after he became a member of the Body of Christ, as witnessed by his words here:
"But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people" (Acts 21:39).
I will believe Paul and not your silly ideas!
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musterion
Well-known member
So right off the bat you impugn my reading what you'll say before I've even read it. Evil surmise much?
Pro tip: if someone misreads what you say, it could be because they're careless, sloppy or stupid (it could also be because your explanation is careless, sloppy or stupid). But give them the chance to READ it before deciding.
I've read that before. I have no problem with the idea.
Meaning what, the entirety of Scripture? The Pauline corpus specifically? I know MADs in good standing who believe either. Which do YOU mean? Notice carefully that I have read nothing into what you said, but have only asked for clarity.
Here again I ask for clarity without reading into what you said (if I was going to read into what you said, I wouldn't ask for clarity):
Do you mean an aspect of good news that was promised by God was ALSO kept secret by Him since the world began?
Or so you mean that the promised good news had a hidden, unrevealed aspect within it?
What you wrote can be read either way. I suspect you must mean the second but don't want to be falsely accused of having read into anything, because I haven't.
Hi Jerry , and John never wrote to the Body of Christ , period !!
Only Paul uses the term " in Christ !!
I have never seen where Paul used the phrase " in His Son " .
ARE / ESTI "in Christ " and ARE / ESTI , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE OF CONTINUOUS ACTION and that just speaks to the Dispensation of the Grace of God ,and NOT in the Kingdom letters , like 1 John 5:11 !!
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Please specify a verse where that is found, Dan.
John told the believers that their life is in the Son (1 Jn.5:11).
Paul said the following:
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is In Christ Jesus" (2 Tim.11:1).
Peter also says the following:
"Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1Pet.5:15).
I have already shown you that those who received the Hebrew epistles were told to be expecting an "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus and the only imminent appearance will be when those in the Body will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.
And you have no answer for that.
musterion
Well-known member
Were the Hebrew epistles written before God had completely cut off dealing with Israel as Israel?
And why did you put imminent in quotes?
Wait a minute, Jerry.
The only imminent appearance is the rapture of the Body taught only Paul taught . . . but it's nonetheless found in the Hebrew epistles?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, afterwards.
To stress it because it seems as if some on this thread do not understand the meaning of the word.
Yes, it is.
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).
There is more evidence that the Jews who received the Hebrew epistles were indeed waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus. So we can know for certain that those who wrote those epistles and those who received those epistles were members of the Body of Christ.
musterion
Well-known member
You are, of course, aware of the alternate view: the Hebrew epistles were written earlier than is often assumed, and so still had in view God's dealing with national Israel, as still possible to repent and not yet cut off (Paul being the only one I'm aware of who specifically addresses the cutting off of Israel in Rom 9-11). So in this view, the Hebrew epistles were not looking for the Rapture of the Body, but were yet looking to the return of Messiah as promised by Peter in Acts 2 contingent upon the repentance of Israel.
What do you find at fault with this view?
What do you find at fault with this view?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That view denies the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and thus they were members of the Body of Christ.
What do you find at fault with this view?
musterion
Well-known member
Isn't that circular reasoning you're engaging in?
Because Israel is (was) Israel. The Body is the Body.
In my opinion (worth no more than anyone else's), WHEN THE LETTERS WERE WRITTEN, the writers still had the hope of Israel's national repentance and the return of the King, on the earth.
Paul's hope, on the other hand, is the appearing of Christ and our gathering together with Him in the air.
Two groups, two hopes (one delayed, one current), one Lord.
(now, whether Kingdom saints, upon Israel's cutting off, were incorporated into the Jew/Gentile Body is another issue that will never be settled this side of the Rapture -- but whether it's true or not, it's irrelevant to what the hope of the various authors was WHEN THEY WROTE).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You even admitted that the imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus is only for those in the Body. And James makes it plain that he was indeed expecting an imminent appearing. What is circular about that?
Paul made it plain that Jewish believers were being baptized into the Body (1 Cor.12:13) and I see nothing which even hints that only some of those believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body. In fact, in the following passage there is nothing which would lead anyone to believe that not all of the believing Jews are in view and not just some:
"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).
I see no evidence of that.
Here we can see Peter telling the Jewish believers that they have a "living hope" and describes that hope as something reserved in heaven for them:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Pet.1:3-4).
When Peter speaks of a "living hope" he is speaking of the "hope" found in Paul's epistles:
"Awaiting our blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
That is exactly the same "hope" which the Apostle John refers to here and it is in regard to the time when Christians will be made like the Lord Jesus when "he shall appear" at the Rapture:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 Jn.3:2-3).
musterion
Well-known member
I'm saying only that you seem to be discounting Acts 3:20-21, is all. If the circumcision apostles all wrote earlier than Paul, which is possible, then the hope they were looking for is exactly what Peter said in Acts 3, pending Israel's repenting, not the rapture of the Body.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
There Peter was addressing Israel as a nation which was composed of both believers and nonbelievers. Then after Israel as a nation refused to believe then that "nation" was set aside.
And after that Paul states that both Jewish believers and Gentile believers were baptized into the Body (1 Cor.12:13).
And the Hebrew epistles demonstrate that the Jews who received those epistles were waiting for an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus. And by your own words it will be those in the Body who will experience that coming.
Besides if they were waiting for the appearance of the Lord Jesus which is found after the abomination of desolation is set up then that appearance could not be described as being imminent, which means it can happen at any time.
Since it couldn't happen until the abomination of desolation will be set up then it couldn't be said that it can happen at any time.