What is the Gospel?

[glorydaz]

I have no issue saying we all struggle with hypocrisy... (We includes I)

That you assume everyone has the same problems you do is just plain dumb. We have many straight shooters right here on this site who feel no need, whatsoever, to play the hypocrite. They are not eaten up with pride the way you are.

I have no issue with saying I have imperfect Love. I do feel convicted for all of the hate I've dished out under the applause of people like Glorydaz and others... on this site. The issue here is that this is Glory... again refusing to say the words... Jesus died for ALL.

It just sticks in your craw that I won't bark when you tell me to. I won't say what you demand, BECAUSE you have a wrong notion of Jesus' work on the cross. You don't even understand the meaning of reconcile or ransom or atonement. You're nothing but a blow hard who wants people to think he's a great scholar.

This is Limited Atonement... flirtation... and though the Atonement is said to be "Sufficient"... she is iterating that she refuses to tell the unbeliever that Jesus died for them.

I tell unbelievers exactly what Paul did. I just don't tell them all the same things Paul told believers, because they don't apply to them yet, and you hate that.

The attitude here appears to be that the Holy Spirit isn't there to explain this to the individual... but instead... Glory inserts herself into the need of the person knowing that the person will die in their sins... the issue here is that Glory knows that Sonnet already knows this portion of the Gospel and thus... Glory is deferring.... to a 50% argument that says... "No... Because that person may die in their sins if I tell them Jesus Died for their sins..."

You certainly have an active imagination. Is that why you keep going off the deep end? :chew:

I don't tell unbelievers their sins are forgiven just because Jesus died on the cross. They must first believe in order for that work to be effectual for them.

Sonnets point and the Bibles is "Behold what manner of LOVE"... "While we were yet sinners"... "He Who justifies the Ungodly" "While we were at enmity"...

Then why is Sonnet an unbeliever? Apparently, he doesn't see the need for him to believe in order to have the benefits of Christ work on the cross. And you continue to enable him.

Sonnet didn't ask this... and Glory knows Sonnet already knows what she is intentionally saying to avoid saying "Jesus died for even the unbelieving". The fact remains that Glory corrects people for saying that Jesus died for all. You can even go to Pate's threads and see her in action. She's becoming a regular TULIP Bee.

Cool. If it makes you happy, you can call me a Tulip Bee. :banana: That you bring up Pate's thread is interesting, since I've merely defended AMR from some of Pate's claims about him. Just as I did with you, as I recall. And I also discussed reconciliation, which you don't understand. I'm bad for defending AMR from false accusations....things you boys read into what he's said. You read into people's posts....because you're ignorant that way.

She's Duplicitous and I wanted to drop this, but you exonerated her out of friendship, instead of doing research for a matter you decided to help mediate. I trusted you to research something you were stepping into without bias.

Well, now you're just flat out lying about me.

I was wrong.

No duh!

Did I lose my stuff? Oh yes. I admitted shame for losing it! I even wanted to speak kindly to [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] , but she mocked me when I did and like a fool, I took the bait and talked to her like she consistently talks to others... out of pride and hostility, while hiding behind a thin veil of self justification.

If you actually were emotionally invested in me as a friend like you are Glory, you would have had the courtesy to look through this thread before you said something so void of a Holy Spirit Softened Heart... but the fact remains that you most likely dislike certain views I have and know that I don't believe in "Republican Moral Majority Jesus"... thus... you claim I don't have thick skin.

:baby: He's obsessed with me. :idunno:

The truth is that I was enormously applauded when I ripped people to shreds and placed Theological agenda over human compassion.

I literally burned all of that applause and humbled myself for my errors... out of conviction of the Holy Spirit. I wanted all the credibility I had obtained while hurting fellow human beings that Jesus died for... to go away... hence... I asked [MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] to please destroy my old EE account.

Here it is.....the spiritual pride is astounding. :kookoo:

 

[meshak]

But no one is really hitting them,

The is such thing as verbal abuse.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Meshak Makes Some, er, "observations"

Meshak Makes Some, er, "observations"

One thing is that Calvinists here don't want to say anything against the Forum owners.

Well, at least Calvinists are complying with the rules around here, no?

It is because Calvinist were initially rejected by most MADs and they started to flirt with them.

Name them, please. :Clete:

But now it is changed. Because they do not cross the MADs.

Name them, please. :cloud9:

this is my observation.

~0-0~

AMR

 

[meshak]

Well, at least Calvinists are complying with the rules around here, no?


Name them, please. :Clete:


Name them, please. :cloud9:



~0-0~

AMR

Why don't you ask MADs if my observation is accurate?

Why do you think Nang was so bad mouthed by them?

 

[Danoh]

It would be more relevant to the thread for you to respond to my question regarding 1 Cor 15:3-8 - whether it's the Gospel. I have asked many times. Why you wont, as a follower of Christ, answer is baffling.

You posted that to Truster.

While I do hold to the Words of "God our Saviour" v. 3...

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

One, that is a NOW time revelation unique to the Apostle Paul's "my gospel" - which concerns Christ's having given Himself a ransom not only for ALL, but to be testified IN DUE TIME.

In contrast to those passages prior to this NOW time (or Dispensational) revelation that had spoken only of "for many."

So, there is this NOW TIME or Dispensational distinction (dispensation: oikonomia or economy) about that.

This here...

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But there is also this issue in verse 2, in the following, that you do appear to be off on, if I have understood you right...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

For when they believed that Christ died for their sins, etc., ALL this took place, via The Spirit...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

How do I know that was via the Spirit?

This here...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Meaning that this here...

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

...is actually referring to a different salvation, thus, the word ALSO.

Note the order...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Verse 2 is another ALSO...

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not only had he preached the gospel of Christ to them, they had ALSO received it.

But the thing does not end there.

That much is this...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

But that had not ended there, for he then ALSO adds "and wherein ye stand" - which is this...

Romans 5:2 By whom ALSO we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Which is the issue of stability - the very issue he is addressing in 1 Cor. 15.

In other words, someone had come along and destabilized them - had asserted that they had believed in vain - that Christ had not risen from the dead - which is why Paul goes into that there.

It is not...the whole of the gospel of Christ preached by Paul.

That would actually be all of Romans.

Because Romans goes over many Dispensational issues the misunderstanding of any aspect of which ends up people in all sorts of ideas about salvation.

Romans is a DUE TIME, or Dispensational Revelation, Rom. 16:25, 26 - all of it.

And Paul's letters prior to Romans make it evident he had been preaching much of Romans long before he wrote it.

In contrast, Corinthians and Galatians are more like commentaries on various issues already solved for in Romans.

But back to 1 Cor. 15.

Notice....this here...

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

That "unless ye have believed in vain" is the issue of unless this that follows was not true...

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Pail later returns to this basic assertion "unless what you have believed was false" in the following...

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

There is your verse 2.

THAT is what he began the chapter with.

He then adds more on this issue...

15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So, no, 1 Cor. 15 is not all the gospel of Christ.

It is in fact, very little of all it encompasses.

There are, for example, some various issues concerning man that have to be gone into, as say, in some things gone over in Romans 1:18-3:20, and, say, in Romans 5, about how man ended up in his predicament to begin with - BEFORE - the Cross as God's sufficient provision for ALL that was NOW being testified, is only then gone into.

In other words, 1 Cor. 15 is actually no more than a very short, to the point reminder of all that Paul had actually gone into with them, that he does not go into with them there again, but merely reminds them of, in a very, very limited summary form.

Go out and preach the gospel of Christ to people - see if you don't repeatedly run smack into all sorts of issues and questions that chapter is actually merely in light of but does not go into, because Paul was "speaking to the choir" if you will.

And again, the Corinthians were already Believers, or saved people.

In fact, though already saved, at the same time it is equally obvious they were an unstable group, it is evident in the very first chapter of this amazing letter to them...

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

But anyway, go out and preach the gospel of Christ to all sorts of people.

See if you don't come home from that with all sorts of questions to have to trace out the answers to in Scripture.

The gospel of Christ is that much a hands kind of a thing - you learn how to swim its ever wonderously profound and equally vast waters, not based on a few passages, but rather on "the whole counsel of God" dived into, and not only in The Book itself, but hand in hand out there in that vast, ever endless sea of lost humanity.

While you're at it, if you yourself haven't done so already, right this minute would be as good a time as any to believe that, yeah, this; that; or the other...

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" - Romans 5:8

 

[daqq]

But there is also this issue in verse 2, in the following, that you do appear to be off on, if I have understood you right...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

For when they believed that Christ died for their sins, etc., ALL this took place, via The Spirit...

<snip>

How do I know that was via the Spirit?

This here...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now [being]made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

The very passage you quote to make your point disproves your point. It was necessary for the "foolish Galatians" to walk out/through what had been begun in them; but they somehow got sidetracked and were beginning to go about it according to the flesh, and not by the Spirit, for someone had attempted to bring them back into the bondage of the "works of the law", (which is an idiom that speaks of the physical and flesh-minded interpretations of the Torah). Therefore "ALL" those things you imagine were already accomplished in them "via the Spirit", (if that is indeed what you think), had not yet "ALL" been accomplished in them, (they only had the "earnest of the Spirit", like a down-payment on a house, just as Paul teaches elsewhere, and the Promise comes at a later date, "after we have done the will of Elohim", just as the author of Hebrews teaches, (Hebrews 10:36 KJV)). Moreover James expounds how that the scripture which was spoken concerning father Abraham, (Genesis 15:6), was not actually fulfilled until many years later, (Genesis 22:1-18), when Abraham's faith was tested, (James 2:21-24, see a recent explanation of this here).

 

[Sonnet]

Funny, that is just what I was thinking might come up in my next post, the great commission: for if the Reform-Calvinist view was correct then we might not even have the writings we are discussing here in the first place. Where does the Master say in the great commission, "Go preach the Gospel to those whom you know the Father has chosen"??? (lol).

This we have seen from those who reserve the Gospel (and Paul does describe 1 Corinthians 15:3 as an essential element of the Gospel) for those who believe - the 'chosen').

 

[Sonnet]

Why does Jesus use parables? Who are those that are "without"?

Mark 4:10-12 KJV - 10 [FONT=&quot]And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.[/FONT]

You are arguing that Judas Iscariot was given the secret of the Kingdom of God compared with others who were, “...ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”?

 

[daqq]

This we have seen from those who reserve the Gospel (and Paul does describe 1 Corinthians 15:3 as an essential element of the Gospel) for those who believe - the 'chosen').

Not sure if my estimation is completely true but it seems to me to be nothing more than an excuse, and especially in a forum atmosphere such as this: for the same reason AMR generally does not even respond to me, (as you can see that earlier he has posted and yet ignored what I said even though he was quoted and mentioned in one of my posts), and that is because he has already judged me as lost, unsaved, (or "unelect" I suppose), and this I know because he openly said so when I first began posting here, (I have a memory like an elephant, lol, especially when someone tells me I am outside of the faith). Therefore, because of his doctrinal mindset, he feels he has no compulsion to expound anything to me, (in other words it is nothing more than a defense mechanism). The reality is that many times the Scripture has been employed to refute what he has proposed from his own doctrine: so what really is the truth? He lets himself off the hook thinking that because he himself has judged me as "not saved" it must by default mean that the Scripture which I post is null and void because, according to his theology, I cannot possibly know what it says, (because in his mind I am "totally depraved"), and he therefore does not have any responsibility to either expound the truth to me or to even attempt to defend his position, (which he cannot do by way of the Scripture and he already knows I will not accept the blatantly erroneous Canons of Dort, lol).

 

[Sonnet]

I see NO difference between what you and I have agreed with and what glorydaz has stated just as clearly.

I entirely agree with glorydaz when she says that there is more to the gospel than two verses in I Corinthians. There's more to the gospel than is contained in both I & II Corinthians combined, never mind two verses!

Read Galatians much?
Read Romans much?

I mean seriously! Where the heck is the big disagreement here?

Resting in Him,
Clete

It's not my intention to convince you of any disagreement. I have read Galatians and Romans.

 

[glorydaz]

This we have seen from those who reserve the Gospel (and Paul does describe 1 Corinthians 15:3 as an essential element of the Gospel) for those who believe - the 'chosen').

The Gospel is preached to all unbelievers.

But, clearly, you have a comprehension problem. "Our sins" is referring to the sins of believers there in Corinth.......those who had already had the entire Gospel preached to them, and have already believed it. This really isn't rocket science.

And, Jesus Christ is the Elect One, and those IN HIM are the Elect. Isaiah 42:1 Isaiah 43:10

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.​

 

[Nihilo]

What is the Gospel?

I am a non-believer interested in knowing what the good news is. I ask because, in my experience, Christians do not seem to agree on the specifics. One might point to the issue of the scope of Christ's salvific provision as being particularly relevant.

If the Gospel isn't clearly defined then, surely, the non-believer may legitimately ask, 'Believe in what?'

I'll just quote my sig.

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

This is the Gospel.

Believe in what? Believe in that Jesus Christ is risen---believe in that His resurrection is historical and nonfiction.

 

[Sonnet]

Are you a lady?

No.

 

[glorydaz]

The very passage you quote to make your point disproves your point. It was necessary for the "foolish Galatians" to walk out/through what had been begun in them; but they somehow got sidetracked and were beginning to go about it according to the flesh, and not by the Spirit, for someone had attempted to bring them back into the bondage of the "works of the law", (which is an idiom that speaks of the physical and flesh-minded interpretations of the Torah). Therefore "ALL" those things you imagine were already accomplished in them "via the Spirit", (if that is indeed what you think), had not yet "ALL" been accomplished in them, (they only had the "earnest of the Spirit", like a down-payment on a house, just as Paul teaches elsewhere, and the Promise comes at a later date, "after we have done the will of Elohim", just as the author of Hebrews teaches, (Hebrews 10:36 KJV)). Moreover James expounds how that the scripture which was spoken concerning father Abraham, (Genesis 15:6), was not actually fulfilled until many years later, (Genesis 22:1-18), when Abraham's faith was tested, (James 2:21-24, see a recent explanation of this here).

I agree they were tempted to go back to the works of the Law, but the earnest of the Spirit is all we get while awaiting the redemption of our body. God has ordained that we will have good works as we are being conformed into His image....a natural result of the indwelling Spirit and His fruit. Eph. 2:10

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

Perhaps that was what you were talking about.... :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

that is for you, friend.

There ya go. Patrick was quoting scripture and you turned it on him.....false accuser. :down:

 

[daqq]

I agree they were tempted to go back to the works of the Law, but the earnest of the Spirit is all we get while awaiting the redemption of our body. God has ordained that we will have good works as we are being conformed into His image....a natural result of the indwelling Spirit and His fruit. Eph. 2:10

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

Perhaps that was what you were talking about.... :idunno:

Yes, somewhat, but we do also receive the Promise:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.^{Hab 2:3-4}
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The old man goes into perdition: the new man is raised up in Messiah.

And Paul expounds the will of Elohim by the commandments and Testimony of Messiah:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

The will of Elohim is to cut off sin from our own house-body-temple which is in fact no more our own when we enter into the faith that is in Messiah: for we are bought with the Price, and are no more our own, but are become the temple of Elohim. It is personal, individual, and to each in his or her own appointed times, (your own little "dispensation"), the time appointed of the Father when a "child" becomes a son, (Gal 4:1-2). This is no different from father Abraham whose belief was accounted unto him as righteousness and then put to the test, (many years later in his life).

 

[Sonnet]

The Gospel is preached to all unbelievers.

But, clearly, you have a comprehension problem. "Our sins" is referring to the sins of believers there in Corinth.......those who had already had the entire Gospel preached to them, and have already believed it. This really isn't rocket science.

If this was Paul's understanding then he would never have said, 'this is what we preach...'. As you affirm, such a 'this' is certainly not what you and others will preach verbatim.

Paul never explicitly restricts as you do.

And we may go to John 3:14-16 for clarification. You still haven't dealt with that.

 

[musterion]

I reported because you never let go.

it is not good to hold a grudge.

Like all trins being war loving sex perverts?

Hypocrite.

 

[daqq]

This we have seen from those who reserve the Gospel (and Paul does describe 1 Corinthians 15:3 as an essential element of the Gospel) for those who believe - the 'chosen').

If this was Paul's understanding then he would never have said, 'this is what we preach...'. As you affirm, such a 'this' is certainly not what you and others will preach verbatim.

Paul never explicitly restricts as you do.

I assume you are speaking of 1Cor 15:11 where Paul says, "thus we preach"? (or "so we preach" or something along those lines). If so it is pretty clear that when he says "we" he speaks of himself and the other apostles. If in this passage, by his usage of graphe, he does not mean "Scriptures", (as in the Tanach), but rather simply means "writings", then the whole passage comes perfectly into view, (for those willing to see it), for he speaks not of prophecies in the Tanach concerning Messiah herein but rather speaks concerning the Good News or Gospel histories which were already being circulated, (I know that mainstream Christianity, and especially the hard-core grace minded Paulines, will fight what I say tooth and nail here: but he went up to learn the "historie(s)" from Kephas according to Gal 1:18 and yet only needed to spend fifteen days going over what he received, (because what he received were written documents, writings, "graphas", which he could take and walk through with Messiah on his own)). Look at what comes just before this section in the previous chapter:

1 Corinthians 14:36 - 15:11
36 What? was it from you that the Word of Elohim went forth? or unto you alone did he come?
37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let the same recognize the things I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Master.
38 But if anyone is ignorant, [or ignores] let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in foreign tongues.
40 But let all things be done decently and in order.
01 Now I declare to you, brethren, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand:
02 By which you also are being delivered, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
03 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: [Gal 1:18] that Messiah died for our sins according to the writings:
04 And that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the writings:
05 And that he appeared to Kephas, then to the twelve.
06 Then he appeared to over five hundred brethren upon one occasion, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep.
07 Then he appeared to Yakob, then to all the apostles:
08 And last of all, as if a miscarriage, he appeared to me also:
09 For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, for that I persecuted the congregation of Elohim.
10 But I am what I am by the grace of Elohim: His grace which was bestowed on me was not futile, but I labored the more-abundantly-so than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of Elohim which was together-with me.
11 Whether then it is I or they, [the other apostles] thus we preach, and thus you believed.

 

[meshak]

There ya go. Patrick was quoting scripture and you turned it on him.....false accuser. :down:

many times he does not explain how he is reading he is quoting.

What you guys are doing is just nit picking. This is majority of popular members tactic here.

You call everyone hypocrites when your opponents don't agree with you.

You can always find something to call names if you look for it.