What is God's first creation?

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The fact Christ is Male is irrelavent. In the Greek due to how the language is structured linguistically the gender as denoted by the speaker matters. Hence the differences as i've already explained.
Which is it? Is 'petra' made masculine because Peter was male, or was it made masculine because Jesus (the speaker) was male? And while the noun is the same in both instances, can you provide a source for the different 'the' used for each, in the Aramaic language, for Matthew 16:18 KJV?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
With all due respect im not concerned about what your Church teaches. What i am concerned about is what the scriptures says on the matter, which incidentally is also incompatible with what your Church teaches.
You dismiss 1st Timothy 3:15 KJV's claim? That's what the scriptures say.
The Bible is the authority on ALL doctrinal matters. Not the spurious teachings of a Church who claims Peter to be greater than Christ himself.
I don't know of anybody who claims that.
You've been given numerous examples and most all reasons as to why your view is false. But trust me i understand the reasons for your cognitive dissonance also.
I'm stuck with the Church, during the lives of the Apostles and shortly thereafter, believing that Christ meant 'upon you (Peter) I will build My Church.'
 

JudgeRightly

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You dismiss 1st Timothy 3:15 KJV's claim? That's what the scriptures say.

I didn't see anyone denying the claim of 1 Timothy 3:15.

I don't know of anybody who claims that.

In a way, you do, by saying Peter is the foundation of the church, and not Christ.

I'm stuck with the Church, during the lives of the Apostles and shortly thereafter, believing that Christ meant 'upon you (Peter) I will build My Church.'

Then your understanding is extremely shallow, as we have shown you repeatedly in this thread, and you're relying more on the church than you are on what Scripture actually says.
 

JudgeRightly

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Which is it? Is 'petra' made masculine because Peter was male, or was it made masculine because Jesus (the speaker) was male?

It's NEITHER.

Petra and petros are two similar sounding words that mean sort of the same thing, yet they are not the same word.

And while the noun is the same in both instances, can you provide a source for the different 'the' used for each, in the Aramaic language, for Matthew 16:18 KJV?

Idolater, how many greek words are there for the english word, "love?" There are four. SOC listed them above. ALL of them can be translated as love. But they ARE NOT THE SAME WORD.

The english word for "rock" is the same way, there are at least two Greek words for the english word rock, and they both have different meanings.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Idolater, how many greek words are there for the english word, "love?" There are four. SOC listed them above. ALL of them can be translated as love. But they ARE NOT THE SAME WORD.
Who cares? We're not talking about agapao, phileo, eros, etc.---we're talking about petrA, and petrOS.
The english word for "rock" is the same way, there are at least two Greek words for the english word rock, and they both have different meanings.
I haven't seen the evidence supporting this, apart from anti-Catholics who have a bone to pick with Rome. I only see a post facto made-up distinction, not actual historical evidence of the word 'petros' being used apart from Peter's name, in literature preceding Matthew 16:18 KJV. (Call it AD 50-60.) And I'm still looking for the evidence that in Aramaic, there was a distinction in the 'the.'
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Here is some information from the AENT that I thought you might be interested in:

Matt 16:18
16. Shimon Keefa said, “You are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim.” 17. Y’shua answered him and said, “Blessed are you Shimon, the son of Yona, because flesh and blood have not revealed this to you,but my Father who is in heaven. 18. I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa 178 I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it.


Now some of the notes.

Notations:
178 This is a wordplay between Keefa the man and what his nickname means. Y’shua uses Keefa’s name to reveal the significance of Keefa’s conclusion. Neither flesh nor blood (an individual) can reveal the “nature” of Mashiyach, except YHWH Himself by the Ruach haKodesh! Using the literal meaning of Keefa’s name (rock), Y’shua brings together the understanding of the Tsur (Rock) of D’varim/Deut 32:18, 30, 31; Psalm 18:46; Psalm 61 and 62; Isaiah 8:14; 17:10; 51:1-8. When Shimon Keefa says, “You are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim” he confesses faith in Mashiyach, not the person only, but the Spirit of Mashiyach in Y’shua. Y’shua’s reply provides Keefa the same reference that David and the Prophets had regarding YHWH’s Salvation, the Rock. However, this verse was twisted by Catholicism to first give Peter “authority,” then usurp Peter’s “authority” for its leader. Ya’akov was the first Rosh Beit Din of the Netzari, not Peter. Paganism makes the physical persons of Y’shua, Maryam, Peter, and others into deity-like icons, very contrary to Torah and Mashiyach.


I advise all who love theology to get the AENT as the notes are of real value.

www.aent.org
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
'Catholicism' is today what the whole world knew as simply 'the Church' for TEN CENTURIES.
The only difference between Protestants and non-Protestants is that non-Protestants believe Christ gives His Church the constant gift of the popes' charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals, when and only when a pope teaches on matters of faith and morals, 'ex cathedra.' All Church beliefs so authorized are already taught and explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. And Pope Francis, and neither Pope Benedict, nor Pope John Paul II, has not changed any of the Church's infallible teachings on matters of faith and morals.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Peter doesn't really enter into the scene until the following, and then Christ starts talking to Peter in particular, rather than to all His disciples generally (Mt16:13KJV):
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
What evidence do you have for believing that the Lord Jesus Christ gave Peter in particular 'the keys?' I see in this the papacy, the office of Peter, the supreme pastorship of the whole Church. What do you all see? Anything? Anything at all?
 

Danoh

New member
Here is some information from the AENT that I thought you might be interested in:

Matt 16:18
16. Shimon Keefa said, “You are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim.” 17. Y’shua answered him and said, “Blessed are you Shimon, the son of Yona, because flesh and blood have not revealed this to you,but my Father who is in heaven. 18. I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa 178 I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it.


Now some of the notes.

Notations:
178 This is a wordplay between Keefa the man and what his nickname means. Y’shua uses Keefa’s name to reveal the significance of Keefa’s conclusion. Neither flesh nor blood (an individual) can reveal the “nature” of Mashiyach, except YHWH Himself by the Ruach haKodesh! Using the literal meaning of Keefa’s name (rock), Y’shua brings together the understanding of the Tsur (Rock) of D’varim/Deut 32:18, 30, 31; Psalm 18:46; Psalm 61 and 62; Isaiah 8:14; 17:10; 51:1-8. When Shimon Keefa says, “You are the Mashiyach, the Son of the Living Elohim” he confesses faith in Mashiyach, not the person only, but the Spirit of Mashiyach in Y’shua. Y’shua’s reply provides Keefa the same reference that David and the Prophets had regarding YHWH’s Salvation, the Rock. However, this verse was twisted by Catholicism to first give Peter “authority,” then usurp Peter’s “authority” for its leader. Ya’akov was the first Rosh Beit Din of the Netzari, not Peter. Paganism makes the physical persons of Y’shua, Maryam, Peter, and others into deity-like icons, very contrary to Torah and Mashiyach.


I advise all who love theology to get the AENT as the notes are of real value.

www.aent.org

Leave it to those Messianic Jews who know their Scripture to at times shed great light on a thing Messianic as only they alone are often able to, when such apply themselves, and given the ever profound, ever all encompassing pervasiveness from which EVERY aspect of THEIR culture ALONE EVER points TO HIM: The Rock of Their Salvation.

2 Samuel 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Thus, their ever all encompassing Messianic sense of Him in that dessert under Moses, where their faithful believed on He Whom Moses did say would come unto them one day...

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Has anyone who's ever attended Catholic mass ever gotten the impression that the mass celebrated Peter, or the pope, or Mary, or anybody else, other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Nope. Here's the verse in the NKJV, and I'll post the note after:

And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone). - John 1:42 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:42&version=NKJV

7e200192bb5500a65be1f054f55ae422.jpg
There was an actual conversation between Jesus Christ and Peter and His other disciples, Matthew records. In front of His other disciples, He said to Peter . . . something. We know He spoke whatever it was, in Aramaic. It was something like, "You [Peter] are 'a rock/the rock,' and upon this 'same rock/a different rock' I will build My Church." He either used the same word for both 'rocks,' or He did not (we agree that Matthew's Greek has 'petros' for the first 'rock,' and 'petra' for the second, but we also agree that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek in this conversation, but Aramaic, and in Aramaic, the word for 'rock' is the same, though we are waiting for a source as to whether the 'the' was the same or not). Matthew 16:19 KJV indicates this whole passage was directed at Peter and not at all His disciples generally, if that's any sort of clue, which it might not be at all, in order to determine exactly what He said, and what He meant in saying it. We all, I believe, agree, that He at least meant Peter's confession in Matthew 16:16 KJV, by the second 'rock,' the only thing we differ on is whether or not the second 'rock' also refers to Peter.
 

Danoh

New member
Has anyone who's ever attended Catholic mass ever gotten the impression that the mass celebrated Peter, or the pope, or Mary, or anybody else, other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?

It does appear not to celebrate anyone other than the Christ of Scripture.

To the un-informed, and or ill-informed, that is.

Just as, to the un-informed and or ill-informed "all paths lead to God."

Just as, to the un-informed and or ill-informed, the name Allah as meant by the Muslim, is "just another way of saying God."

Just as to the uniformed, and or ill-informed, to point out a possible error in their view to them, is to offend them.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." - Proverbs 14:12

Romans 5:6-8.
 

JudgeRightly

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There was an actual conversation between Jesus Christ and Peter and His other disciples, Matthew records.

Duh.

In front of His other disciples, He said to Peter . . . something. We know He spoke whatever it was, in Aramaic.

Ok, And?

It was something like, "You [Peter] are 'a rock/the rock,'

The Greek reads:

18 καγω δε σοι λεγω οτι συ ει πετρος και επι ταυτη τη πετρα οικοδομησω μου την εκκλησιαν και πυλαι αδου ου κατισχυσουσιν αυτης

18 kago de soi lego oti ei petros kai epi taute te petra oikodomeso mou ten ekklesian kai pulai adou ou katischusousin autes

18“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

and upon this 'same rock/a different rock' I will build My Church." He either used the same word for both 'rocks,' or He did not (we agree that Matthew's Greek has 'petros' for the first 'rock,' and 'petra' for the second, but we also agree that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek in this conversation, but Aramaic, and in Aramaic, the word for 'rock' is the same, though we are waiting for a source as to whether the 'the' was the same or not).

So you're trying to argue that there is, somewhere, the exact Aramaic wording of what was said in Aramaic by Jesus? If so, the onus is on you to prove such. As it stands, that STANDARD we are using is what scripture says (ie, what we have available, such as the majority texts). And the majority texts make the distinction between petros (Peter) and petra (a mass of rock), because MATTHEW wrote petros and petra in Greek, and did not write this verse in Aramaic.

Either produce the exact aramaic recording of this conversation, which would have been translated into Greek (and not the other way around, like the Aramaic New Testament) which would have been placed into the Bible, or stop arguing that the Aramaic conversation would change what is said.

Matthew 16:19 KJV indicates this whole passage was directed at Peter and not at all His disciples generally, if that's any sort of clue, which it might not be at all, in order to determine exactly what He said, and what He meant in saying it. We all, I believe, agree, that He at least meant Peter's confession in Matthew 16:16 KJV, by the second 'rock,' the only thing we differ on is whether or not the second 'rock' also refers to Peter.

As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” - Romans 9:33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans9:33&version=NKJV

"Rock" here is "petra." The passage is about Jesus, not Peter.

Every time Peter is mentioned, it's "petros." Please provide a scripture verse in the NT where "petra" means "Peter."
 

Danoh

New member
Duh.



Ok, And?



The Greek reads:

18 καγω δε σοι λεγω οτι συ ει πετρος και επι ταυτη τη πετρα οικοδομησω μου την εκκλησιαν και πυλαι αδου ου κατισχυσουσιν αυτης

18 kago de soi lego oti ei petros kai epi taute te petra oikodomeso mou ten ekklesian kai pulai adou ou katischusousin autes

18“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.



So you're trying to argue that there is, somewhere, the exact Aramaic wording of what was said in Aramaic by Jesus? If so, the onus is on you to prove such. As it stands, that STANDARD we are using is what scripture says (ie, what we have available, such as the majority texts). And the majority texts make the distinction between petros (Peter) and petra (a mass of rock), because MATTHEW wrote petros and petra in Greek, and did not write this verse in Aramaic.

Either produce the exact aramaic recording of this conversation, which would have been translated into Greek (and not the other way around, like the Aramaic New Testament) which would have been placed into the Bible, or stop arguing that the Aramaic conversation would change what is said.



As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” - Romans 9:33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans9:33&version=NKJV

"Rock" here is "petra." The passage is about Jesus, not Peter.

Every time Peter is mentioned, it's "petros." Please provide a scripture verse in the NT where "petra" means "Peter."

Great post.

:thumb:

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Peter was not the rock, Jesus was.

And Matthew was first written in ARAMAIC.

Most of the books came from the Aramaic and Hebrew.

I understand that is debatable.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Great post.

:thumb:

Rom. 5:6-8.
Jesus simply said, to Peter: You are 'rock,' and upon this rock, I will build. There's no reason aside from anti-Catholic bias to take it in another way. It's the most natural, plainest reading of the verse.
 

Danoh

New member
Jesus simply said, to Peter: You are 'rock,' and upon this rock, I will build. There's no reason aside from anti-Catholic bias to take it in another way. It's the most natural, plainest reading of the verse.

Spin it how you obviously need to, just as obviously unaware that is all you are doing.

For the fact remains that a doctrine is often the result of more than a mere word parsing or two.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Spin it how you obviously need to, just as obviously unaware that is all you are doing.

For the fact remains that a doctrine is often the result of more than a mere word parsing or two.
You guys are the ones who need to formulate a doctrine here, not me, and not Catholics. There was never any question what Matthew 16:18 KJV meant until the year FIFTEEN SEVENTEEN. Protestants MADE UP anything other than what the Church always believed Matthew 16:18 KJV meant for FIFTEEN CENTURIES.

But of course, it doesn't matter what Christians thought in 1516. I get that. But are you really going to say that it doesn't matter what Christians thought in 116? Or even earlier than that? These are Christians, some of whom, who knew one or two Apostles personally, who actually remembered them, and what they said. Certainly they are Christians who know Christians who knew Apostles personally. Certainly these are Christians whose pastors were ordained by a bishop ordained by an Apostle.

There's zero evidence of any controversy surrounding Peter's primacy, the papacy's primacy, nor the meaning of Matthew 16:18 KJV, in the earliest of early Church records, which is just exactly the modern Catholic Church's position, and is claimed to be the original Christian position, and there's zero evidence in history suggesting otherwise.

The fallacy's name here that you're all committing, I don't remember. It's like the difference between in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt, and beyond any doubt, beyond all doubt. You guys are insisting on 'beyond all doubt' here, and if we were to apply that to so many other of your other theological or ecclesialogical positions . . . well, never mind. Your position is less beyond all doubt, than the historical, oldest, uniform Christian position from the earliest is.
 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus simply said, to Peter: You are 'rock,' and upon this rock, I will build.

See, here's the thing:

Petros is translated 161 times as Peter, and 1 time (one single time!) as stone.

The only time it's translated as "a stone" is in John 1:42, where it's providing a translation for Peter's name. It is never used in the figurative sense.

Petra on the other hand is used and translated 16 times as a mass of rock, either literal or figurative, literal in that it meant a projecting rock, cliff, or ledge, or a large stone, or metaphorically as a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul, which Peter had neither. In fact, if anything, Peter was a basket-case of a believer. If you pay attention to him throughout the four Gospels, you see he tried hard to be strong spiritually, but he failed in so many ways, even going so far as to deny his Master 3 times.

No, Petros was far from being a petra, and Jesus needed a petra to build His church on, not a petros.

There's no reason aside from anti-Catholic bias to take it in another way.

This is an appeal to tradition, a logical fallacy.

It's the most natural, plainest reading of the verse.

And now you're just asserting things without supporting it.

Have you ever heard of Hitchens's Razor? It's similar to Occam's Razor, which is that the simplest explanation (ie, the one that makes the fewest assumptions) for something is usually the correct one.

Hitchens's Razor follows along the same lines:

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

You have presented no evidence (other than an appeal to tradition and a dismissal of evidence) that Peter is the rock Jesus built His church on, whereas I and SOC have presented not only the definitions of both petros and petras, and how Peter was not a very solid rock (figuratively speaking) in the first place, and now I have told you how both words are used throughout the NT.

Going back to Hitchens's Razor, then, you can't dismiss our argument as "anti-Catholic bias," because we have presented evidence that contradicts your interpretation of scripture, and using Occam's Razor, your argument assumes not only that petra and petros mean the same thing (they don't), and that Peter was a good rock to build on (he wasn't), and that any argument against your position must be anti-Catholic (ours is not), whereas our position looks at the proper meaning of the words petros and petra, it looks at Peter's stability as a whole throughout scripture, and does not appeal to tradition, but rather assumes that Scripture has authority over the church, and not vice-versa.

Idolater, the Bible says that two or three witnesses shall establish a matter.

We have provided you with the witness that Peter was not a petra in his spiritual life, the witness that petra and petros are not the same word, the witness that petros only means stone 0.6% of the time it's used, and the remaining 99.4% it's used as a name, the witness that petra means a literal mass of rock, and it means (in the figurative sense) a man who is spiritually sound (which as I said just a moment ago that Peter was not), and the witness that Scripture has authority over the church, and not the other way around, and the witness that Jesus, elsewhere in scripture, is called petra, whereas Peter is never called petra.

That's more than enough witnesses to establish that Peter was not the foundation of the church
 
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