What is Free Will?

[docrob57]

A moral problem is posed by perfect and absolute "foreknowledge." If God knew what Satan was going to do before ever making him, meaning he perfectly foreknew the problems he would cause and the eternal suffering he would have to endure, and God made him anyway, would God bear any moral responsibility? Think of it this way: If you and your spouse were planning on conceiving a baby, and an angel came and told you that if you attempted to conceive this evening you would be successful, but the baby you produced would freely make some disastrous choices that would hurt many people and lead to her own eternal and inescapable torment, would you go through with conceiving her?

I am not sure that God would bear "moral responsibility," but it would seem that both in the heavenly realm and the earthly one, that He did create the conditions for evil to exist, and, yes I do believe that He foreknew this. I think that the reason He did this was as a means of instructing people, by contrast, as to the nature of God and motivating those who would to come to Him.

I am sure there are better answers than this, but this is all that has been offered thus far.

 

[Balder]

I think the moral issue remains a bit sticky. If you say that foreknowledge does not impinge on the free will of individual agents, just as recollection of events does not "impact" the freedom of those acts, then is there anything wrong with God only creating those he foreknows will ultimately choose him and choose goodness? If God's foreknowledge does not impact the meaningfulness or freedom of individual action, why make so many individuals that he foreknows will be doomed forever?

 

[servent101]

Balder

If God's foreknowledge does not impact the meaningfulness or freedom of individual action, why make so many individuals that he foreknows will be doomed forever?

... and where do you get this idea of eternal torment and fire and brimstone from? - possibly from your cuddling the literalist dogma a little too much. I know you don't like me saying anything harsh to you, but really - this concept of the diabolical monster of the orthodox is something that I have warned you about - that if you fondle a skunk, you smell like one.

If you would declare with your heart that there is no such "demon" reported in Scripture... that this concept of the diabolical god is only a figment of the literalist imagination - I will give you ten points that you can use at Wallmart to get really cool stuff with.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Balder]

Thank you, but Walmart is Hell's outpost on Earth. I ain't goin' in there, even with a coupon!

And just for the record, yes, I totally reject the idea of eternal torment as just or as true.

 

[servent101]

Balder

And just for the record, yes, I totally reject the idea of eternal torment as just or as true.

I feel a lot better,,, and as well, do you think the closed book of various writings on the Good News is literal or does it employ metaphore on the matter of hell.

Lets really clean the slate.


with Christ's LOve

Servent101

 

[Delmar]

I am not sure that God would bear "moral responsibility," but it would seem that both in the heavenly realm and the earthly one, that He did create the conditions for evil to exist, and, yes I do believe that He foreknew this. I think that the reason He did this was as a means of instructing people, by contrast, as to the nature of God and motivating those who would to come to Him.

I am sure there are better answers than this, but this is all that has been offered thus far.

God "created the conditions for evil" so that grace would abound?

 

[docrob57]

God "created the conditions for evil" so that grace would abound?

Heaven forbid!

No this is a troubling question for my position to be sure. I think at this point I will follow the debate and see what the participants have to say about it.

There have been lots of good issues raised here, especially by you and Balder, in my opinion.

 

[docrob57]

I just read Pastor Enyart's round 1, and I have to say he argues this stuff better than you guys!

 

[Yorzhik]

That's why Bob gets paid the big bucks!

 

[Poly]

I just read Pastor Enyart's round 1, and I have to say he argues this stuff better than you guys!

You sure won't get any argument from me on that one.

 

[docrob57]

You sure won't get any argument from me on that one.

I'm not being critical of "you guys" either, but thus far his case looks pretty strong.

 

[Clete]

I just read Pastor Enyart's round 1, and I have to say he argues this stuff better than you guys!

You can say that again! Bob Enyart makes the rest of us look silly by comparison. :freak:

 

[Balder]

You can say that again! Bob Enyart makes the rest of us look silly by comparison. :freak:

I wouldn't say that.

 

[garymorton]

Free Will

Free Will

From my book on line at
http://photosc.msspro.com/pic/theov.htm

Free Will

With complete free will you would always be standing in the middle of all possible choices and wouldn't be predisposed to select certain items. You would never develop character, a strong personality or inner strength.

We grow in many areas and not all of them are good. It is fortunate that no one grows in only bad ways. We tend toward the larger good or else we tend toward the larger evil. Wisdom limits choices because the wise aren't free to be foolish.

Through free will we can choose the Christian way of life. Free will is not only choice, it's the ability to distinguish and reject those things that are wrong and evil. Being free is really being as free of evil as one can be.

In everyday choices there isn't always an absolute answer or even a best answer. Say we're using our free will to decide what to eat. I may say that I'd like to try some chocolate ice cream simply because I've never tasted it before. Since ice cream is something I know to be good my preference for new good tastes leans to it.

Your character, taste and tendency to choose certain things over others limit free will and choice. Yet if you had no preferences you wouldn't be able to choose anything, so free will is a limited human power.

No matter what people say determines your choice - say the mood you're in is a major factor in the playing of a certain song . . . the factor of your mood still belongs to your self-system. Therefore you determined the choice; choice exists on the moral plane of the self.

Determinism is a mistake of reasoning. It doesn't matter what forces helped shape you and your personality; you are whole, you are you, and it is you who makes choices. Forces in your past did play an ample part in your makeup, but they aren't an absolute power over you.

Because we can reflect and look at ourselves we can choose to change ourselves. The human spiritual condition can be raised through reflection, faith and freedom. There is inspiration from God. People can be born again. Add the better reflections of humanity in literature to that and we know there would be little that is human if there were no free will. The best defense of free will is to say that there is reflection and it allows choice and free will.

MORTON * VIGNETTES

 

[Clete]

From my book on line at
http://photosc.msspro.com/pic/theov.htm

Free Will

With complete free will you would always be standing in the middle of all possible choices and wouldn't be predisposed to select certain items. You would never develop character, a strong personality or inner strength.

So what? If we are able to do or to do otherwise where at least one of those two choices are morally right then we are free enough to be responsible for our action. "Complete freedom", especially as you have defined it here is not necessary.

We grow in many areas and not all of them are good. It is fortunate that no one grows in only bad ways. We tend toward the larger good or else we tend toward the larger evil. Wisdom limits choices because the wise aren't free to be foolish.

Of course they are free to be foolish or else it wouldn't mean anything to say they were wise. Wisdom has to do with what one CHOOSES to actually do as opposed to what they could have chosen to do. If one chooses rightly, then they are wise. If they choose wrongly then they are foolish. Without choice, both are meaningless.

Through free will we can choose the Christian way of life. Free will is not only choice, it's the ability to distinguish and reject those things that are wrong and evil. Being free is really being as free of evil as one can be.

Sounds nice and I'm sure it's probably true from a certain perspective but this assersion uses the term "freedom" to mean something other that what we are talking about and thus this is off topic and irrelevent.

In everyday choices there isn't always an absolute answer or even a best answer. Say we're using our free will to decide what to eat. I may say that I'd like to try some chocolate ice cream simply because I've never tasted it before. Since ice cream is something I know to be good my preference for new good tastes leans to it.

Regardless of what influences your decision, as long as you were both actually and logically able to choose otherwise the action was free. And if an action is influences to such a degree as to make it impossible to do otherwise then there is no responsibility for that action on the part of the one who performed it. The ice cream example isn't great in this regard in that it is not a moral choice but the principle can still be commuticated just fine.

Your character, taste and tendency to choose certain things over others limit free will and choice. Yet if you had no preferences you wouldn't be able to choose anything, so free will is a limited human power.

That's fine so long as you acknowledge that an option to do or to do otherwise remains fully in tact and that without such a genuine option morality is dicounted.

No matter what people say determines your choice - say the mood you're in is a major factor in the playing of a certain song . . . the factor of your mood still belongs to your self-system. Therefore you determined the choice; choice exists on the moral plane of the self.

I see no problem with this statement as long as the ability to do otherwise remains.

Determinism is a mistake of reasoning. It doesn't matter what forces helped shape you and your personality; you are whole, you are you, and it is you who makes choices. Forces in your past did play an ample part in your makeup, but they aren't an absolute power over you.

Now we are really lineing up nicely with eachother! :thumb:

Because we can reflect and look at ourselves we can choose to change ourselves. The human spiritual condition can be raised through reflection, faith and freedom. There is inspiration from God. People can be born again. Add the better reflections of humanity in literature to that and we know there would be little that is human if there were no free will. The best defense of free will is to say that there is reflection and it allows choice and free will.

MORTON * VIGNETTES

Perhaps you could expand more on this reflection defense. :think:

Resting in Him,
Clete