What Happens in Purgatory? Tim Staples

[Right Divider]

But even the dispensation of law was undergirded by grace, for Abraham was counted as righteous before he was circumcised and the covenant God made with him was done while Abraham wasn't even unconscious and it was God alone who passed between the pieces of the sacrifice (Gen. 15).

I believe that you meant "wasn't even conscious".

 

[Hoping]

Not while in the flesh, no!

Are you not glad we don't have to walk after the flesh anymore?
Not since we were allowed to be crucified with Christ and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:3-7)
I rejoice in the fact we can now walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Don't you?

Otherwise, grace is not needed and the cross was unnecessary!

God's graceful sending of His Son to die for our sins also provided our route out of the flesh.

That, in fact, that is a major lesson God was teaching mankind during the dispensation of law. Seeking to be righteous in the flesh is legalism for the law has to do with the flesh. Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, so is the law a cutting off of fleshly desires. That's why circumcision is THE symbol of the law.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.​

But even the dispensation of law was undergirded by grace, for Abraham was counted as righteous before he was circumcised and the covenant God made with him was done while Abraham wasn't even unconscious and it was God alone who passed between the pieces of the sacrifice (Gen. 15). This was on purpose (obviously) because there's no way for any mere man to follow the law perfectly. One could try really hard and some would succeed better than others but regardless of how many doves, lambs, goats, calves and bulls were slaughtered there's just not any such thing as a perfect human being that has inherited the sin nature. But God prefers mercy over sacrifice and so, because God knew Calvary was coming, He could justly allow grace to fill in the gaps, for want of a better phrase.

For now, during this dispensation of grace, the law (i.e. our flesh) has nothing to do with it other than to convict us of sin and bring us to Christ. Once we believe and call upon Him then we are baptized (spiritually) into Him and His righteousness is imputed to us. Our righteousness is by faith and when we see Him face to face, then and only then will our faith will become sight.

As the Law was given to men still walking in the flesh, (as the Law was meant to be our instructor for righteousness and unrighteousness), and the Law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, by grace we have been provided the means to crucify the flesh with Christ.
And henceforth walk in the Spirit.

Why do you repeat the same "argument" as though I haven't already refuted it?

You haven't refuted anything.

Remember when I pointed out that Romans 6 comes BEFORE Romans 7? It does not come before and is not in answer to Romans 7.

Rom 7 is Paul's recap of his preconversion life in the flesh and trying unsuccessfully to obey the Law.
It is his written narrative of his transformation from walking in the flesh to walking in the Spirit.
Its proximity to any other chapter in inconsequential.

Besides that, even if it were, it is not teaching what you suggest! You are reading your doctrine into the text! Just because we no longer live our lives in service to sin, does not mean we live perfectly sinless lives where we never do anything wrong!

I read my doctrine from the texts.
I see the laments of Rom 7 answered in Rom 6 and Rom 8.
Before and after.

There aren't any Gentiles, Hoping!

Any one who is not a Jew is a Gentile.
Are you now a Jew by your having been grafted into the Branch by the grace of God?
But what about the rest of non-Jewery?

What ever saves one, the same saves everyone else.

Agreed.
So why do you feel Gentiles don't, or can't be, baptized into Christ's death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life?

It only strengthens your point if you read your doctrine into the text just like the Calvinists do when they use the bible to defend the idea that the rape of babies was in God's plan all along!

Agreed, as unbelievers won't accept anything from scripture with a Spirit filled mind.
They all still walk in the flesh.

It is the concept of "by faith" that you are ignoring.

My death, burial, and being raised with Christ would not be possible without faith.
The death of my flesh, vile affections, and lusts, would not have happened without faith.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
If the way you interpret scripture is valid then why are we still physically alive given what this verse says? It blatantly says that "it is no longer I who live", does it not?

We are not.
We are seated in heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)

Fortunately, Paul makes it explicit in this passage that "the life which I now live in the flesh I live BY FAITH in the Son of God". It is by faith that these things are true, Hoping, not by the flesh!

Agreed.
But you keep saying we are still in the flesh.
Why?

Paul spends his whole ministry tying the law and the flesh together. It is the law that is fleshly, not faith! Thus, he states emphatically that he does "not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, (i.e. through the flesh) then Christ died in vain.” Thus, if what you're here trying to sell us is true, then there's no need for grace at all and there wasn't ever any need for Christ to die!

You are using "grace" as a bandage instead of as a cure.
By grace all the things ordained from before time have been enabled by faith in the actions of Christ...(and other things too.)
The "pictures" of the OT have been fulfilled by Jesus.
Like, water baptism, now in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, fulfills several presages from the OT.
So do repentance from sin, and rebirth.

Your doctrine literally turns Christianity upside down and shakes out all the parts of it that are important! There isn't any chance at all that you're saved!

Hardly.
The doctrine of Godliness is the outcome of faith and repentance from sin.
Both provided gracefully by God.

So you just don't believe that what Paul calls "the flesh" even exists then because the Spirit of God Himself taught the exact opposite of what you just claimed...

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.​

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.​

​

All of that was written in the PRESENT TENSE. If Paul taught what you are trying to sell here, he would have to have written, "For I know that what was in me (that was, in my flesh) nothing good dwelt; for to will was present with me, but how to perform what is good I could not find." But he didn't write that!

WHY?

Why? Because narratives are written that way.
Have you never described a past event in your life from the perspective of still being there?
I certainly have.
You still haven't realized that Paul's lament in Rom 7:23 was answered in Rom 8:2.

Because the fact is that our flesh has not yet been redeemed, that's why. And so long as that remains the case, every man woman and child in Christ will read and identify with the things Paul says so clearly in Romans chapter 7 because that is the Christian life. An unbeliever would never have any reason for such thoughts to occur to him.

The skin and bones are the temple of the Holy Ghost while we live on earth, in Christ.
When they are raised from the dead at the return of Christ we will we given new vessels.
Will you call them "flesh" too?
Skin and bones don't make the man.
The mind does: and we have the mind of Christ after our rebirth.

You can quit blaming skin and bones for sins.
That is, unless your hands and eyes can do things without your knowledge.

 

[Clete]

Are you not glad we don't have to walk after the flesh anymore?
Not since we were allowed to be crucified with Christ and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life? (Rom 6:3-7)
I rejoice in the fact we can now walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Don't you?

God's graceful sending of His Son to die for our sins also provided our route out of the flesh.

As the Law was given to men still walking in the flesh, (as the Law was meant to be our instructor for righteousness and unrighteousness), and the Law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, by grace we have been provided the means to crucify the flesh with Christ.
And henceforth walk in the Spirit.

You haven't refuted anything.

Rom 7 is Paul's recap of his preconversion life in the flesh and trying unsuccessfully to obey the Law.
It is his written narrative of his transformation from walking in the flesh to walking in the Spirit.
Its proximity to any other chapter in inconsequential.

I read my doctrine from the texts.
I see the laments of Rom 7 answered in Rom 6 and Rom 8.
Before and after.

Any one who is not a Jew is a Gentile.
Are you now a Jew by your having been grafted into the Branch by the grace of God?
But what about the rest of non-Jewery?

Agreed.
So why do you feel Gentiles don't, or can't be, baptized into Christ's death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life?

Agreed, as unbelievers won't accept anything from scripture with a Spirit filled mind.
They all still walk in the flesh.

My death, burial, and being raised with Christ would not be possible without faith.
The death of my flesh, vile affections, and lusts, would not have happened without faith.

We are not.
We are seated in heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)

Agreed.
But you keep saying we are still in the flesh.
Why?

You are using "grace" as a bandage instead of as a cure.
By grace all the things ordained from before time have been enabled by faith in the actions of Christ...(and other things too.)
The "pictures" of the OT have been fulfilled by Jesus.
Like, water baptism, now in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, fulfills several presages from the OT.
So do repentance from sin, and rebirth.

Hardly.
The doctrine of Godliness is the outcome of faith and repentance from sin.
Both provided gracefully by God.

Why? Because narratives are written that way.
Have you never described a past event in your life from the perspective of still being there?
I certainly have.
You still haven't realized that Paul's lament in Rom 7:23 was answered in Rom 8:2.

The skin and bones are the temple of the Holy Ghost while we live on earth, in Christ.
When they are raised from the dead at the return of Christ we will we given new vessels.
Will you call them "flesh" too?
Skin and bones don't make the man.
The mind does: and we have the mind of Christ after our rebirth.

You can quit blaming skin and bones for sins.
That is, unless your hands and eyes can do things without your knowledge.

You aren't even trying. It makes no difference to you what the bible actually says. You'll find a way to force it to agree with your doctrine.

Why even bother showing up on a debate forum? Who on Earth could ever be convinced by this sort of literal stupidity?

I'm done wasting my time with you.

Good bye.

 

[Hoping]

You aren't even trying. It makes no difference to you what the bible actually says. You'll find a way to force it to agree with your doctrine.

Why even bother showing up on a debate forum? Who on Earth could ever be convinced by this sort of literal stupidity?

I'm done wasting my time with you.

Good bye.

I will keep you in my prayers.
Or don't we need to pray anymore either?

 

[Clete]

I will keep you in my prayers.
Or don't we need to pray anymore either?

What would make you say something like that?

Have I ever given you any reason to think any such thing?

You're not only a heretic and fool, you're an asshole.

Don't ever address me again. You will never come off my ignore list so long as I remain a member of this website.

Good riddance, Mr. Perfect!

 

[Hoping]

What would make you say something like that
Have I ever given you any reason to think any such thing?

As your doctrine is so firmly rooted in being non-Jewish, it stands to reason that anything rooted in the Jewish Jesus would automatically be verboten.
Am I wrong?

You're not only a heretic and fool, you're an asshole.
Don't ever address me again. You will never come off my ignore list so long as I remain a member of this website.
Good riddance, Mr. Perfect!

How many times have I been put on your ignore list now?
At least three?

You might as well just admit that being free from sinning, and serving God instead of sin, appeals to you.