What does God's Holy Law Demand?

Wick Stick

Well-known member
It seems to me that all your reading of other books hasn't helped you in understanding some things in the Holy Bible. Why read those other books?
Precisely for the purpose of understanding things in the Bible.

If you believe that everything in the Bible is sufficient to understand everything in the Bible, then you've been snowed, friend. That's a line of bull that is fed to Protestant laypersons primarily for the purpose of making sure that they don't start trying to think for themselves.

As for the books being old, how does that insure they are writings from God?
Obv it doesn't. That, however, was not the question.

You expressed concern, specifically, as to whether the text had been corrupted in the years between Jesus day and now. The antiquity of our extant manuscripts addresses that concern.

Jarrod
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Just because I am drawing conclusions, doesn't mean I'm "jumping" to them. I have enough study hours in the Pentateuch that I would be qualified to write a doctoral thesis on the subject. (I won't be doing so, since I have no need for further degrees or ordinations.)

Jarrod, you said, "Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)"

So what is the explanation for Exodus 3:18? With your extensive education in the Torah who commanded the sacrifices?

:cheers:
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You seem to think goat blood can cleanse from sin.
No, but I do believe that God recognizes and approves of actions done in faith.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Jarrod, you said, "Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)"

So what is the explanation for Exodus 3:18? With your extensive education in the Torah who commanded the sacrifices?

:cheers:
You are basically asking me the same question I originally posed. You know that, right?

Exodus 3:18 contains a shrewd bit of politics, in which Moses asks Pharoah to grant leave, knowing full well that he will not. It's a bit like the scene in Braveheart where Mel Gibson goes out to parlay before the battle, and one of the men asks him where he is going. "To pick a fight!"

No amount of proof-texts resolves the problem. The original problem here is that there are texts on both sides that disagree with each other.

The conflict can be solved in several ways.

1) We can interpret the priesthood as being something figurative, and not something to be carried out literally, as 1M1M has done, following Barnabas.
2) We can interpret the priesthood as being a punishment from God, rather than an expression of His desires, in which case God lifts the punishment in an act of mercy.
3) We can believe one group of texts and dismiss the other.
4) We can believe that God changed His Mind about atonement, or miscalculated the effects the priesthood would have.

I do not find #3 be a viable option. I opt to keep the whole Bible. The 4th option, which you seem to subscribe to, also falls short. God does not change, or make mistakes.

I have been, for some time now, inclined to believe #2. In the incident of the golden calf, Israel incurred God's anger, and would have been destroyed without Moses' intercession. The establishment of a priesthood to intercede for the people is a practical means of saving them from God, but also a punishment to Israel, who bore the load of supporting a professional clergy and supplying meat for an expensive cult center and liturgy.

I admit, though, that I find option 1 fascinating, and not at all far-fetched. This position has the support of many early scholars of the church, as Barnabas and Justin. If true, it also adds an element to Jesus condemnation of the 1st-century Jews for their mode of practicing the Law. That is, perhaps He wasn't just condemning their additions to the liturgy, but also their literal practice of it, altogether.

#1 & #2 may be simultaneously true. God has a way of getting things to work together to make 1 action support multiple ends.

It is clear from a reading of the entire Old Testament, that the Levitical priesthood and associated law-keeping were not used by the faithful, even before Jesus life and death. Both the patriarchs before Moses, and the prophets that came after him, uniformly practice justice apart from the law. They all condemn the sacrificial system, and the high holy days. What use do the righteous have for sacrifice? None at all.

It is only in the books of history where we see the unfaithful backsliding part of Israel - those condemned under the Law - carrying out the literal letter of the Levitical priests duties.

Finally, consider King David. He failed repeatedly at upholding justice. During his life, he was a murderer and an adulterer, a mercenary and a traitor. His unbelief brought war, plague and discord both on his army, his village, his tribe, and the whole country. But even David recognized the insufficiency of the Levitical priesthood, as he sought after the prophet of God (not the priests), approached God directly in matters of penitence and absolution, and even went so far as to both change the existing priesthood, and name himself a priest. He even sought to change the liturgy of the priestly cult.

It seems clear to me at least. The Levitical priesthood, including its attendant statutes and liturgy, is intended for punishment for those who do not seek to do what is just. It is a millstone that the wicked may choose of their own volition to push uphill, as Sisyphus, laboring to establish their righteousness by means other than faith, even as it points them elsewhere.

No-one was ever justified by the blood of lambs and doves, the intercession of the Levite was never effectual, and it was only those who lacked ears to hear who appropriated the punishment upon themselves.

The just were always just because of their faith, and only ever paid any heed to the spiritual application of the Law, not the literal practice of the Law's attendant priesthood.

Jarrod
 

Ben Masada

New member
They were just following orders.

So Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to heed than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22)​

After this text, can you believe now in Jeremiah 7:22 that HaShem did not command that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel? I hope not.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The 4th option, which you seem to subscribe to, also falls short. God does not change, or make mistakes.

I don't subscribe to any of your four options. I subscribe to the premise that Levi was one of the twelve sons of Jacob.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
After this text, can you believe now in Jeremiah 7:22 that HaShem did not command that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel? I hope not.
This does seem like your kind of thread. I was just trying to resolve this apparent contradiction in the Old Testament.

Maybe you could read my post on the previous page and debate me a bit? I'm afraid my words are wasted on jamie.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Do you know why they call the Old Testament old?

All of that law stuff is passing away, Hebrews 8:13.

Now, I don't know whom to believe in, if in Jesus or in "saint" Robert Pate. Still at his time Jesus said that, to achieve salvation we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) It means that till then
there was nothing old in the Tanach. "OT" must be an item in the agenda of Replacement Theology.
 

Ben Masada

New member
This does seem like your kind of thread. I was just trying to resolve this apparent contradiction in the Old Testament.

Maybe you could read my post on the previous page and debate me a bit? I'm afraid my words are wasted on jamie.

It seems to me you have just recently arrived. I have never changed throughout the years I post in this forum. Apparent contradiction in the Tanach! That's not likely.
 

Epoisses

New member
No, but I do believe that God recognizes and approves of actions done in faith.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​


The verse says by faith he offered a better sacrifice ergo faith is what God was looking for.
 

Ben Masada

New member
The old covenant has been 'replaced' by the better covenant. Bye bye worthless rules that unbelievers trust in.

Worthless rules! That's when I wish Jesus was alive to write a good response to this post of yours. He would start his post by asking you, "How can you imply that I am preaching a gospel of worthless rules? Telling people to listen to "worthless rules aka the Law?" I think that the best way to go is by erasing Luke 16:29-31 from the NT.
 

God's Truth

New member
Precisely for the purpose of understanding things in the Bible.

If you believe that everything in the Bible is sufficient to understand everything in the Bible, then you've been snowed, friend. That's a line of bull that is fed to Protestant laypersons primarily for the purpose of making sure that they don't start trying to think for themselves.

Obv it doesn't. That, however, was not the question.

You expressed concern, specifically, as to whether the text had been corrupted in the years between Jesus day and now. The antiquity of our extant manuscripts addresses that concern.

Jarrod

Everything in the Bible is sufficient to knowing everything in the Bible. Jesus give UNDERSTANDING to those who obey. What good is it if you read anything in the Bible or extra biblical writing if you do not do what Jesus says? Again, you will not have understanding until you obey.
 

Epoisses

New member
Everything in the Bible is sufficient to knowing everything in the Bible. Jesus give UNDERSTANDING to those who obey. What good is it if you read anything in the Bible or extra biblical writing if you do not do what Jesus says? Again, you will not have understanding until you obey.

can you write one post without the word 'obey'?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
There is no love and salvation without it.

"If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love."


Are you prepared to stand before a holy God in the judgment and profess your righteousness?
 

God's Truth

New member
Are you prepared to stand before a holy God in the judgment and profess your righteousness?

I am before God now. I live in Him and He lives in me. I obey everything that God says, so how is it you think I am not righteous and prepared?

Are you prepared to stand before God and say you are righteous?

Tell me how you are righteous and how you think that happened? lol
 
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