What does God's Holy Law Demand?

God's Truth

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Why do people insist on saying such things?

All of our posts are still here! Everyone can read the whole conversation! It's you who don't believe what Paul claimed he did to the church! That was just like one or two posts ago!



You're a fool. You have no basis upon which to make such a accusation except that you happen to disagree with my doctrine. You don't know me or anything about what I've studied, what I've learned or how I learned it. You know next to nothing at all. Wasn't it you who quoted Matthew 7:2 to me? You should read the rest of the chapter and see what God says about hypocrites, which is what the whole passage is about, by the way.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Jesus tells us how we are given understanding!

Understanding is not given the way you say.
 

God's Truth

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Paul was the apostle to the Jews too, but Jesus sent him far away to the Gentiles because the Jews did not trust Paul. The Jews thought Paul was just trying to trick them to say they believe in Jesus so that he could throw them in prison.

Acts 22

12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him. 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ 17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19 “ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ 21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ ”
 

Clete

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If you have not read the Bible you are lacking in much if you want to explain God's word to people or teach.
I've the bible several times. What are you talking about now?

You asked if something is right or wrong because God says so. The answer is yes.
Nope, God said so because it is so, not the other way around. Effects do not precede their own cause. What God says is right (morally and otherwise) because God is good. If it is the other way around then it is meaningless to say that God is good. In fact, you have no way of knowing whether God is in fact good if its the other way around. An issue Aristotle brought up 2300 years ago and that you could have no answer for because you actually do believe that good is defined by God's fiat.

You gave the alternative that it is wrong because it is inherently wrong. I do not think you are recognizing what you have done and how I have responded.

The Bible is the word of God. Have you heard of Bible study, Bibliology, Biblical Theology, Christian Theology, or Systematic Theology? I would think these would all come first before anyone attempts to justify Christian philosophy.
They all are Christian philosophy.

As a student of God's word, the Bible, beginning with the Torah and the TaNaKh and including the New Testament scriptures, I know that philosophy is empty.
If you knew anything at all you'd know that you just contradicted yourself.

I have no disagreement with being able to ask questions of the text in Bible study or even Hermeneutics, the Art and Science of Biblical Interpretation, to include a study of interpretation whether in Judaism or Christianity, even if someone says the questions they are asking of God or a Christian teacher, pastor, or apologist are philosophical in nature.
Every question about God is philosophical in nature.

I believe if you are grounded in the Bible, the word of God, beginning with Torah as your foundation, you will not error in giving correct answers.
Well that's obviously false. There's more too it than that. The PROOF of that is Christian television. All anyone ever does on Christian TV is quote the bible and not 1% of it leads to a proper theology proper, soteriology, hamartiology or any other aspect of the Christian faith. They barely get the fact that Jesus is God right and several of them don't even get that far, all the while quoting the bible till that pass out.

There is also a difference between knowing the truth, knowing God's Law, and only having your own thoughts or a general consensus on moral issues/matters.
No kidding.

There certainly is a difference between right and wrong, but the unbelieving Gentile may be without much of what would be known to one who has studied Torah or been brought up under the Law. Certainly each person needs the truth of God's word in the gospel, the good news, the message of Christ and Him crucified for each and every one of us, that we are sinners without Him and in need of saving until which point we are born again by the Spirit of God and therefore saved, and a Christian or student of the New Testament likewise has the word of God, but the moral thoughts of the Gentile and the empty philosophy of the one without Christ pale as compared with even a cursory understanding of God's word.
Of course! No one has suggested otherwise.

Biblical illiteracy not always being the problem (a person can be a Christian without even being able to read, or knowing any scripture, though it is good to know your way around the Bible) it can be recognized that the important thing is salvation but that if our lives are not based on the Bible the word of God and on Jesus Christ God's Son, then what are they based on?
Are you a Catholic?

No, right?

You want to know why you aren't a Catholic? Do you know why Luther was right and all the Catholics were wrong?

"Unless I am convicted by scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen." - Martin Luther

Reason is the reason! And I'm not talking about the driveling stupidity that passes for reason in today's universities where so called scientists use what they think is reason and logic to come up with slobber mouthed, groaning profundities such as the theory of evolution and the big bang. That isn't reason, that's religious dogma masquerading as reason. It is exactly the sort of "philosophy" that Paul warns us not to allow ourselves to be deceived by. It isn't real reason, its a lie. Like all things evil it is a perturbation of the good, a twisted version of the real thing. Real reason is about the truth, its about reality. Rational thought is nothing more than a thinking mind conforming itself to the limits of reality.

If reason is rejected, anything goes, with or without the bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I'm out of time for this evening and will likely not be able to post anything more tonight. I'll leave you with a link to another thread I started a long time ago. I suggest you read the opening post before making any judgments about what I've said in this post. You might just learn something cool about God and His Logos. Feel free to respond either here or on the other thread or both.

Is God Moral?
 

Clete

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Paul was the apostle to the Jews too, but Jesus sent him far away to the Gentiles because the Jews did not trust Paul. The Jews thought Paul was just trying to trick them to say they believe in Jesus so that he could throw them in prison.

Acts 22

12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him. 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ 17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19 “ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ 21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ ”

I am not debate whether Paul was sent to the Gentiles, that would be stupid. Of course he was sent to the gentiles. The question is WHY was he even in the picture at all? Why not send one or all of the Twelve? Was that not their 'Great Commission'?

You really need to try to keep your eye on the ball here!
 

Jacob

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I've the bible several times. What are you talking about now?


Nope, God said so because it is so, not the other way around. Effects do not precede their own cause. What God says is right (morally and otherwise) because God is good. If it is the other way around then it is meaningless to say that God is good. In fact, you have no way of knowing whether God is in fact good if its the other way around. An issue Aristotle brought up 2300 years ago and that you could have no answer for because you actually do believe that good is defined by God's fiat.


They all are Christian philosophy.


If you knew anything at all you'd know that you just contradicted yourself.


Every question about God is philosophical in nature.


Well that's obviously false. There's more too it than that. The PROOF of that is Christian television. All anyone ever does on Christian TV is quote the bible and not 1% of it leads to a proper theology proper, soteriology, hamartiology or any other aspect of the Christian faith. They barely get the fact that Jesus is God right and several of them don't even get that far, all the while quoting the bible till that pass out.


No kidding.


Of course! No one has suggested otherwise.


Are you a Catholic?

No, right?

You want to know why you aren't a Catholic? Do you know why Luther was right and all the Catholics were wrong?

"Unless I am convicted by scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen." - Martin Luther

Reason is the reason! And I'm not talking about the driveling stupidity that passes for reason in today's universities where so called scientists use what they think is reason and logic to come up with slobber mouthed, groaning profundities such as the theory of evolution and the big bang. That isn't reason, that's religious dogma masquerading as reason. It is exactly the sort of "philosophy" that Paul warns us not to allow ourselves to be deceived by. It isn't real reason, its a lie. Like all things evil it is a perturbation of the good, a twisted version of the real thing. Real reason is about the truth, its about reality. Rational thought is nothing more than a thinking mind conforming itself to the limits of reality.

If reason is rejected, anything goes, with or without the bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I'm out of time for this evening and will likely not be able to post anything more tonight. I'll leave you with a link to another thread I started a long time ago. I suggest you read the opening post before making any judgments about what I've said in this post. You might just learn something cool about God and His Logos. Feel free to respond either here or on the other thread or both.

Is God Moral?
I am now thinking about Bible study, Theology, science, and philosophy. They are all different. Theology answers questions about God. Science involves study of God's creation. Bible study is the study of God's word. Philosophy is different from all of these, though science can be said to be backed by philosophical principles, or to have a philosophy behind it. Another thought is science as discovery of the natural world, or the scientific methodology or scientific method. I am saying this about science to speak of philosophy as different. Theology and philosophy are also different, with philosophy attempting to ask and answer many questions about the world in which we live. We still have the verse about not being caught up in philosophy in its emptiness. That is, all of our questions are answered in Jesus Christ. Bible study is simply different from Theology or thoughts about God because we know the Bible to be God's word and we study it to learn about God, Jesus, the gospel and salvation, and how to live the Christian life. Theology, whether Bibliology (one book at a time) or Systematic Theology (which involves the study of different topics or subjects, but with scriptures from throughout the Bible) involves Bible study but can involve our thoughts about God.

Your thread title shows where you are coming from in having and trying to answer your question, but I would never want to doubt that God is moral.
 

God's Truth

New member
I am not debate whether Paul was sent to the Gentiles, that would be stupid. Of course he was sent to the gentiles. The question is WHY was he even in the picture at all? Why not send one or all of the Twelve? Was that not their 'Great Commission'?

You really need to try to keep your eye on the ball here!

I have already explained to you that the scriptures say Paul was saved and made an apostle to show that even the worst of sinners can be forgiven.
 

Robert Pate

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Salvation and the forgiveness of sins has been provided for all who want to be saved.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

After one is saved God gives them his Holy Spirit as their teacher and guide. Does the Holy Spirit make them holy? Of course not, they only have the first fruits or the down payment of the spirit, Romans 8:23. Spiritually, they are perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Physically, they are still sinners just like the apostle Paul, Romans 7:13-25.

The title of this thread is... "WHAT DOES GOD"S HOLY LAW DEMAND?" it demands perfection which none of us have to offer.
 

God's Truth

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Salvation and the forgiveness of sins has been provided for all who want to be saved.
Jesus saves those he chooses to save and he chooses those who obey him.

Acts 5:32, Acts 15:8

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord better be obeying:

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

After one is saved God gives them his Holy Spirit as their teacher and guide.

That happens when one is saved.

The Holy Spirit washes you of the sins you repent of doing.

Does the Holy Spirit make them holy? Of course not,

The Holy Spirit makes us holy by cleansing us of our sins, we now have a new life and to keep obeying. If we sin, we are to repent and we can find forgiveness of our sins from Jesus who lives to intercede for us, see Hebrews 7:12.

they only have the first fruits or the down payment of the spirit, Romans 8:23. Spiritually, they are perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Physically, they are still sinners just like the apostle Paul, Romans 7:13-25.
You blasphemy Paul when you say he still lived his life doing the worst sins!

The title of this thread is... "WHAT DOES GOD"S HOLY LAW DEMAND?" it demands perfection which none of us have to offer.
You only listen to Paul, Paul says to live up to the fact that one is made holy and perfect.

Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Colossians 1:10
so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Colossians 2:6
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him,

1 Thessalonians 2:12
encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:1
As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

King James Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2 Thessalonians 1:5 It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering,
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Jesus saves those he chooses to save and he chooses those who obey him.

Acts 5:32, Acts 15:8



Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord better be obeying:

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.



That happens when one is saved.

The Holy Spirit washes you of the sins you repent of doing.



The Holy Spirit makes us holy by cleansing us of our sins, we now have a new life and to keep obeying. If we sin, we are to repent and we can find forgiveness of our sins from Jesus who lives to intercede for us, see Hebrews 7:12.


You blasphemy Paul when you say he still lived his life doing the worst sins!


You only listen to Paul, Paul says to live up to the fact that one is made holy and perfect.

Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Colossians 1:10
so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Colossians 2:6
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him,

1 Thessalonians 2:12
encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:1
As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

King James Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2 Thessalonians 1:5 It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering,

ONE of your basic problems is, you blend the Kingdom message to the House of Israel with the Grace message to the Gentiles. You cannot do that and come to a coherent conclusion. There are two different distinct messages being taught. Paul was called by the Ascended Lord Jesus Christ to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and preach the Grace Gospel. Whereas Christ, Peter,and the other Disciples preached the Kingdom message to the Jews. By combining these two messages together, you end up with confusion and assorted contradictions.

Paul preaches "Salvation by faith alone while Peter and the Disciples preach "Salvation through faith and works." An example of this is found in James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Paul preaches in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."


Do you see the obvious contradiction?
 

Clete

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....we know the Bible to be God's word and we study it to learn about God, Jesus, the gospel and salvation, and how to live the Christian life.

How do you know this?

I'm not suggesting that it isn't, I agree that the bible is God's word so don't freak out, just answer the question. HOW DO YOU KNOW?


Your thread title shows where you are coming from in having and trying to answer your question, but I would never want to doubt that God is moral.

The thread title was designed to garner attention and to pique interest enough to get people to click the link. I do not and never have doubted that God is moral. It is your position that implies that He is not, which is the entire point of that thread and of my entire exchange with you. YOUR doctrine does imply that God is not moral, Jacob. Whether you ever want to allow such a statement to come explicitly out of your mouth or even to be formed between your ears doesn't change the fact that words mean things and that ideas have consequences and just because you make every attempt to base your doctrine on the bible doesn't mean you do it right every time or that you cannot make enormously important errors. A point I've made now at at least half a dozen times now without reply from you, by the way. You just keep right on going with you mindless "I read the bible...", "avoid philosophy..." babbling as though repeating yourself and ignoring what I say helps. Well I'm sure it helps you feel better but it doesn't change the facts of reality. Your doctrine is false in several areas, not the least of which is that you think right and wrong are arbitrarily determined by God. That not only implies that morality doesn't apply to God but it implies that God is unjust because you cannot be both arbitrary and just, they are opposite things.

These are all thoughts concerning an area of Christian philosophy known as Theology Proper. It is our theology of God. It presumes the existence of God and answers questions like: Who is God: What is God like and why? It is the foundation of all things theological - all things. If it is done correctly, it is both informed by the bible while at the same time it provides boundaries for further bible study and interpretation. Forming a theology proper is a necessary (i.e. logically necessary) first step in any proper systematic theology.

Just to give you a taste of the difference your theology proper makes, take a look at two quite different theologies proper, (the proponents of which both insist are PURELY biblical in nature, by the way).

Those who hold to the idea that God predestines everything (i.e. Calvinist and other Augustinian doctrines) hold (by implication or outright) the follow attributes of God to be preeminent...

God is:Immutable, Impassible, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent

These attributes, you'll notice, are mostly quantitative in nature. They're about how much power God has, how much knowledge He has and how big God is, how much God is moved/changed (emotionally or otherwise), etc.

On the other hand if you reject predestination its because your theology proper is quite different. Those who believe in free will do so because they believe the following...

God is: Living, Personal, Relational, Loving and Righteous

Notice that these attributes are NOT quantitative but are rather qualitative in nature.

You might be thinking, "Well, I don't pick and choose, I believe that God is all of those things." - No you don't! You can't! You are forced to choose, whether you want to or not. You cannot avoid it and you do choose and have chosen, whether you realize it or not.

There are other threads that have gone into great detail establishing that claim and so I'm not going to make any attempt to do so here. I doubt that you would read it if I did anyway but regardless, what I've posted is sufficient to make my point here which is simply this...

Reading the bible is not sufficient by itself. First and foremost it isn't even possible to do. You do have presuppositions that you bring to the reading whether you've ever thought them through or even realize that they exist. It is critical that you not simply read but that you understand what you are reading, which involves a very great deal more than just the words on the page. You MUST govern your mind! If rational thought goes out the window then literally anything goes! If contradictions are permitted then how can you declare any theological truth claim either true or false? If words can mean anything you want them to mean then which wacko doctrine is impossible to construct? If reason is discounted I can "prove" that God is a purple dinosaur with polka dot pajamas on his head and there'd be nothing you could do to even say I was wrong, never mind prove it.

Don't believe me? Then answer the question I posed at the beginning of this post.

How do you know that the bible is God's word?

Your answer, if you offer one at all, will be philosophical in nature.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

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I have already explained to you that the scriptures say Paul was saved and made an apostle to show that even the worst of sinners can be forgiven.
And I have already, repeatedly responded to this by saying that God didn't need Paul for that! God could have sent Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Bartholomew or any one of the other Twelve Apostles to spread the gospel. But He didn't! If Saul was the prefect convert then why didn't God think that through enough to have done the conversion while Jesus was still on Earth? Why park the Twelve, who were given the great commission and the Holy Spirit by God the Son Himself and turn instead to a thirteenth guy who as of that time had been given neither of those things and who, in fact, was never given the great commission at all! It seems that Jesus just sort of wasted His time with the twelve and the whole post resurrection/great commission confab, didn't He?

That is what your doctrine implies, whether you admit it or not.

The reason God converted Saul and sent Paul to the world and parked the Twelve in Israel is because He had ended (temporarily) Israel's prophesied kingdom gospel program and turned instead to the Gentiles and sent Paul to preach "his (i.e. Paul's) gospel" which he did not learn from the twelve nor was he taught it but which he received by revelation from Jesus Christ Himself, which, if your doctrine is correct, there is no good reason for. Why give someone the same gospel that everyone else is teaching my direct revelation, especially when the everyone else that is preaching it happens to be the Spirit filled Twelve Apostles of the Messiah?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

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There are some on this thread that have engaged me on this topic that I've been batting around here with Jacob but not all of you have been actively engaged and since I can't tell what all gets read and what doesn't and because I really believe that this is a critically important topic that I want as many people exposed to as possible, I wanted to post the content of the opening post to the thread I simply linked to a few posts ago. And while I would hope that it would persuade some of you, I don't have any expectations about that one way or the other. My main purpose for posting it here is to, at the very least, communicate to those here who are interested in the issue of morality that it is possible to have a Christian worldview that is also rationally coherent. Indeed, it is my strongly held conviction that the only rationally coherent worldview is a Christian worldview. The following is only one small piece of that worldview, albeit a very important piece...

Our Moral God

The question of God's morality might, to some, seem a ridiculous question. To some the idea that God might not be moral is so ludicrous a thought that it would be down right blasphemous to even utter it aloud. After all, they say, if God is amoral (i.e. non-moral) then there can be no standard of right and wrong. But to those who take such a position it would come as quite a surprise to discover that there are at least as many, if not more, who think it an equally blasphemous thought to suggest that God is moral. After all, God is not subject to anyone or anything, including a moral standard - He is the standard! Right?

What is the source of such confusion? Well, there are many possible ways to answer that question, the most obvious of which has to do with the defining of terms and explaining in more detail what is meant when one says that God is, or is not, moral. But I don't believe that the problem can really be solved by a mere analysis of the semantics involved. This is not an issue of sophistry but rather it is a problem of philosophy. There is a more fundamentally philosophical issue involved here that I believe the vast majority of people on both sides of this issue do not understand nor do they even have any inkling of the issue's existence for that matter. The purpose of this short essay is to bring this issue to the attention of those on both sides of this issue and to explain how the God we serve is indeed moral but not because He follows or is subject to a set of rules nor because His nature defines morality, which is meaningless, but because God is rational.

In John chapter one we are taught not simply that Jesus is God, nor simply that God became a man, but that God the Son is the Logos of God. The New King James renders the passage this way...

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

In this passage, everywhere you see the phrase, "the Word" the Greek word being used is "Logos". It is important to understand what this Greek word means because the use of "Word" as an English translation just doesn't convey what this passage is teaching. Logos conveys the idea of communication or more specifically, discourse and more specifically than that, rational discourse and/or rational argument. It is the word from which we get the suffix "-ology", as in Biology, Theology, Technology, Climatology, Cosmology, etc. So, the study of living things is "Biology" and the processes in a living creature are said to be biological. Notice bio-LOGICAL. To apply logic to the processes in living things, and thus to understand them, is biology, it is the logos of life. This is the meaning conveyed by "Logos".

So now, with this better understanding of the Greek, lets look at this passage again...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledge the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...

"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.​

"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V​

Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​

Okay, so what's the point? God is Logic, Logic is God - so what? Well, lets suppose someone, for whatever reason (uh hem), rejects the Bible, Jesus Christ and the whole concept of God, a true atheist attempts to think through the issues of life and does so in such a way so as to stay as true to the principles of logic and sound reason is he possibly can. If, the Living God is Logic, what conclusions then should this person come too? Should they not be at least very similar to the teachings which are found in Scripture? If such an atheist existed and made such an attempt to use reason to formulate his philosophy of life, would he not be using God to formulate it, even if by accident and in ignorance?

Now, bearing that in mind I want to look at John 1 again. This time verse 4...

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.​

I find it interesting that the issue of life is brought up in the context of the Logos of God. It interests me because if one were to attempt to contemplate a rational basis for morality, life would have to be a necessary starting point because it is only to the living that issues of morality apply or matter. Ayn Rand, just the sort of atheist to which I've been referring, put it this way...

"...the first question is "Does man need values at all—and why?" According to Rand, "it is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible," and, "the fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do." Rand writes: "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action... It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death..." The survival of the organism is the ultimate value to which all of the organism's activities are aimed, the end served by all of its lesser values." Ayn Rand (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 13 & 18 New York: Signet.​

Rand also said,

"Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given to him, its sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, its content is not. To remain alive he must act and before he can act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot obtain his food without knowledge of food and of the way to obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch––or build a cyclotron––without a knowledge of his aim and the means to achieve it. To remain alive, he must think." Rand, Ayn (1992) [1957]. Atlas Shrugged (35th anniversary ed.). p. 1012 New York: Dutton​

Now, according to Rand, rationality is the primary virtue in ethics (i.e. morality). For rand ethics is...

"the recognition and acceptance of reason as one's only source of knowledge, one's only judge of values and one's only guide to action." Rand, Ayn (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 25 New York: Signet.​

All of which, if God is Logic, is entirely consistent with the common Christian teaching that morality is derived from and defined by God's nature. Which, by the way, is not to say that Ayn Rand was a godly person, nor that her philosophical conclusions were all correct. On the contrary, her rejection of the existence of God led to a great many errors, some of which are disastrous and grievously wrong. But, nevertheless, to the degree she stayed true to reason, her conclusions remained close to the truth, which means, by definition, that they remained close to God and His truth as taught in the pages of Scripture.

Rand's quintessential statement on morality is this ...

"Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged​

Now, since we now know that God is Reason, what could an atheist say that would be any more in line with the teachings of Scripture than that!?

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.​

I submit that in fact there is nothing an atheist or anyone else could say that would be more in line with the teaching a Scripture and that in fact we can find the answer to the confusion surrounding the morality of God in the fact the God is Logic. Morality is not simply defined by God's character as many Christians suppose, but rather that which is moral is so because it is rational, which, if you are following the line of thinking in this essay properly, you'll understand is the equivalent of saying that what is moral is so because it is God like. To say that God is moral, is not to say that God has a list of rules He must follow but simply that God is Life and that He is consistent with Himself and therefore acts in way which is proper to Life. Thus, to say that God is moral is to say that God is rational. An amoral (non-moral) God would be non-rational and therefore non-personal, non-relational, non-thinking, non-living, non-real!

God is real, therefore God is rational, therefore God is moral!

Clete Pfeiffer
3/24/2012
 

achduke

Active member
ONE of your basic problems is, you blend the Kingdom message to the House of Israel with the Grace message to the Gentiles. You cannot do that and come to a coherent conclusion. There are two different distinct messages being taught. Paul was called by the Ascended Lord Jesus Christ to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and preach the Grace Gospel. Whereas Christ, Peter,and the other Disciples preached the Kingdom message to the Jews. By combining these two messages together, you end up with confusion and assorted contradictions.

Paul preaches "Salvation by faith alone while Peter and the Disciples preach "Salvation through faith and works." An example of this is found in James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Paul preaches in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."


Do you see the obvious contradiction?


The problem with the two gospels/two promises approach is that the bible only talks of one body and one church which are the same thing and have always have been the same thing.

Stephen called Israel in the Wilderness in Acts the Church.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Israel has always been the church. They have not been surpassed nor replaced.

1 Corinthians 12:13 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd


Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Reading from Acts to Ephesians we see that there is only one body/church and Christ is a head of that church. The old testament and even Romans calls that church Israel that we are all grafted into.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
How do you know this?

I'm not suggesting that it isn't, I agree that the bible is God's word so don't freak out, just answer the question. HOW DO YOU KNOW?




The thread title was designed to garner attention and to pique interest enough to get people to click the link. I do not and never have doubted that God is moral. It is your position that implies that He is not, which is the entire point of that thread and of my entire exchange with you. YOUR doctrine does imply that God is not moral, Jacob. Whether you ever want to allow such a statement to come explicitly out of your mouth or even to be formed between your ears doesn't change the fact that words mean things and that ideas have consequences and just because you make every attempt to base your doctrine on the bible doesn't mean you do it right every time or that you cannot make enormously important errors. A point I've made now at at least half a dozen times now without reply from you, by the way. You just keep right on going with you mindless "I read the bible...", "avoid philosophy..." babbling as though repeating yourself and ignoring what I say helps. Well I'm sure it helps you feel better but it doesn't change the facts of reality. Your doctrine is false in several areas, not the least of which is that you think right and wrong are arbitrarily determined by God. That not only implies that morality doesn't apply to God but it implies that God is unjust because you cannot be both arbitrary and just, they are opposite things.

These are all thoughts concerning an area of Christian philosophy known as Theology Proper. It is our theology of God. It presumes the existence of God and answers questions like: Who is God: What is God like and why? It is the foundation of all things theological - all things. If it is done correctly, it is both informed by the bible while at the same time it provides boundaries for further bible study and interpretation. Forming a theology proper is a necessary (i.e. logically necessary) first step in any proper systematic theology.

Just to give you a taste of the difference your theology proper makes, take a look at two quite different theologies proper, (the proponents of which both insist are PURELY biblical in nature, by the way).

Those who hold to the idea that God predestines everything (i.e. Calvinist and other Augustinian doctrines) hold (by implication or outright) the follow attributes of God to be preeminent...

God is:Immutable, Impassible, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent

These attributes, you'll notice, are mostly quantitative in nature. They're about how much power God has, how much knowledge He has and how big God is, how much God is moved/changed (emotionally or otherwise), etc.

On the other hand if you reject predestination its because your theology proper is quite different. Those who believe in free will do so because they believe the following...

God is: Living, Personal, Relational, Loving and Righteous

Notice that these attributes are NOT quantitative but are rather qualitative in nature.

You might be thinking, "Well, I don't pick and choose, I believe that God is all of those things." - No you don't! You can't! You are forced to choose, whether you want to or not. You cannot avoid it and you do choose and have chosen, whether you realize it or not.

There are other threads that have gone into great detail establishing that claim and so I'm not going to make any attempt to do so here. I doubt that you would read it if I did anyway but regardless, what I've posted is sufficient to make my point here which is simply this...

Reading the bible is not sufficient by itself. First and foremost it isn't even possible to do. You do have presuppositions that you bring to the reading whether you've ever thought them through or even realize that they exist. It is critical that you not simply read but that you understand what you are reading, which involves a very great deal more than just the words on the page. You MUST govern your mind! If rational thought goes out the window then literally anything goes! If contradictions are permitted then how can you declare any theological truth claim either true or false? If words can mean anything you want them to mean then which wacko doctrine is impossible to construct? If reason is discounted I can "prove" that God is a purple dinosaur with polka dot pajamas on his head and there'd be nothing you could do to even say I was wrong, never mind prove it.

Don't believe me? Then answer the question I posed at the beginning of this post.

How do you know that the bible is God's word?

Your answer, if you offer one at all, will be philosophical in nature.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I have not said anything about the Bible or God's word being arbitrary here anywhere. I don't know why you would think I believe or think that way. Apparently this is something you have thought about yourself.

You also said I want my doctrine to come from the Bible, which though I can say this is true in thinking about it in response to you was not something I said. I don't know where you are coming up with these things.

I posted the following recently in response to someone else, which may be of benefit to you now, about God's word.

Jacob said:
The following scriptures from the Bible refer to the word of God.

1 Samuel 9:27 NASB - 27 As they were going down to the edge of the city, Samuel said to Saul, "Say to the servant that he might go ahead of us and pass on, but you remain standing now, that I may proclaim the word of God to you."

2 Samuel 16:23 NASB - 23 The advice of Ahithophel, which he gave in those days, was as if one inquired of the word of God; so was all the advice of Ahithophel regarded by both David and Absalom.

1 Kings 12:22 NASB - 22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

1 Chronicles 17:3 NASB - 3 It came about the same night that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,

Proverbs 30:5 NASB - 5 Every word of God is tested;He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Matthew 15:6 NASB - 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Mark 7:13 NASB - 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Luke 3:2 NASB - 2 in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.

Luke 5:1 NASB - 1 Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret;

Luke 8:11 NASB - "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.

Luke 8:21 NASB - But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

Luke 11:28 NASB - 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

John 10:35 NASB - 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Acts 4:31 NASB - 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

Acts 6:2 NASB - So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.

Acts 6:7 NASB - The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

Acts 8:14 NASB - 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,

Acts 11:1 NASB - 1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

Acts 13:5 NASB - When they reached Salamis, they began to proclaim the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews; and they also had John as their helper.

Acts 13:7 NASB - who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:46 NASB - Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

Acts 17:13 NASB - 13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there as well, agitating and stirring up the crowds.

Acts 18:11 NASB - 11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Romans 9:6 NASB - 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

1 Corinthians 14:36 NASB - 36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

2 Corinthians 2:17 NASB - 17 For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 4:2 NASB - 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Ephesians 6:17 NASB - 17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Philippians 1:14 NASB - 14 and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear.

Colossians 1:25 NASB - 25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

1 Thessalonians 2:13 NASB - 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

1 Timothy 4:5 NASB - 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 2:9 NASB - 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

Titus 2:5 NASB - 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

Hebrews 4:12 NASB - 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Hebrews 6:5 NASB - 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Hebrews 11:3 NASB - 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Hebrews 13:7 NASB - 7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

1 Peter 1:23 NASB - 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 Peter 3:5 NASB - 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

1 John 2:14 NASB - 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Revelation 1:2 NASB - who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Revelation 1:9 NASB - I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 NASB - 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

Revelation 19:13 NASB - 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 20:4 NASB - 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here are some additional scriptures to keep in mind.

John 5:39 NASB - 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Romans 3:2 NASB - 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Hebrews 5:12 NASB - 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

2 Timothy 3:16 NASB - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Timothy 3:17 NASB - so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The following verses refer to scripture.

The following scriptures have the word scripture in them.

Mark 12:10 NASB - 10 "Have you not even read this Scripture:'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

Mark 15:28 NASB - 28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with transgressors."

Luke 4:21 NASB - 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

John 2:22 NASB - 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 7:38 NASB - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 7:42 NASB - "Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

John 10:35 NASB - 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

John 13:18 NASB - 18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'

John 17:12 NASB - 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 19:24 NASB - So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; this was to fulfill the Scripture: "THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS."

John 19:28 NASB - After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."

John 19:36 NASB - For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."

John 19:37 NASB - And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

John 20:9 NASB - 9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

Acts 1:16 NASB - 16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Acts 8:32 NASB - Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:"HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.

Acts 8:35 NASB - Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

Romans 4:3 NASB - 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 9:17 NASB - 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Romans 10:11 NASB - 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Romans 11:2 NASB - 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Galatians 3:8 NASB - The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Galatians 3:22 NASB - But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 4:30 NASB - 30 But what does the Scripture say?"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

1 Timothy 4:13 NASB - 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

1 Timothy 5:18 NASB - 18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

2 Timothy 3:16 NASB - 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

James 2:8 NASB - If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

James 2:23 NASB - and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

James 4:5 NASB - 5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?

1 Peter 2:6 NASB - 6 For this is contained in Scripture:"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

2 Peter 1:20 NASB - 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

These refer to the scriptures.

Matthew 21:42 NASB - 42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

Matthew 22:29 NASB - 29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Matthew 26:54 NASB - "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

Matthew 26:56 NASB - "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

Mark 12:24 NASB - 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?

Mark 14:49 NASB - 49 "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures."

Luke 24:27 NASB - Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:32 NASB - They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"

Luke 24:45 NASB - Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

John 5:39 NASB - 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Acts 17:2 NASB - And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 17:11 NASB - Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 18:24 NASB - Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.

Acts 18:28 NASB - for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Romans 1:2 NASB - 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Romans 15:4 NASB - 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Romans 16:26 NASB - 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

1 Corinthians 15:3 NASB - For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Corinthians 15:4 NASB - and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

2 Peter 3:16 NASB - 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The TaNaKh is the Torah - Law, the Nevi'im - Prophets, and the Kethuvim - Writings.

See: The TaNaKh - English Book Names

Now, after saying all of that I can try to share where I am coming from, without being philosophical (though you may doubt this, it is up to you whether or not you can break free from thinking my answer has to be philosophical in nature).

I believe you wanted to know why I believe the Bible is the word of God or how the Bible is the word of God. The Bible is a book. It is a book with 66 books in it. These books have been accepted by Jewish and Christian individuals, bodies, councils. But it is the nature of what is in them that makes them the word of God. The Bible contains the word of God so we can summarily call it the word of God. The Bible speaks of itself as the word of God. The writers or authors wrote as God gave them inspiration.

That is, you can know the Bible is the word of God both because others say it is and because you can read it for yourself and find out that way. What would be wrong is to say the Bible is not the word of God, because it is and we know it is.
 

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And I have already, repeatedly responded to this by saying that God didn't need Paul for that! God could have sent Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Bartholomew or any one of the other Twelve Apostles to spread the gospel. But He didn't! If Saul was the prefect convert then why didn't God think that through enough to have done the conversion while Jesus was still on Earth? Why park the Twelve, who were given the great commission and the Holy Spirit by God the Son Himself and turn instead to a thirteenth guy who as of that time had been given neither of those things and who, in fact, was never given the great commission at all! It seems that Jesus just sort of wasted His time with the twelve and the whole post resurrection/great commission confab, didn't He?

That is what your doctrine implies, whether you admit it or not.

The reason God converted Saul and sent Paul to the world and parked the Twelve in Israel is because He had ended (temporarily) Israel's prophesied kingdom gospel program and turned instead to the Gentiles and sent Paul to preach "his (i.e. Paul's) gospel" which he did not learn from the twelve nor was he taught it but which he received by revelation from Jesus Christ Himself, which, if your doctrine is correct, there is no good reason for. Why give someone the same gospel that everyone else is teaching my direct revelation, especially when the everyone else that is preaching it happens to be the Spirit filled Twelve Apostles of the Messiah?

Resting in Him,
Clete

You are arguing against God Himself, for I gave you scripture that plainly says why God choose Paul.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
You are arguing against God Himself, for I gave you scripture that plainly says why God choose Paul.

You are stupid!

I never once suggested that God didn't choose Paul you slobbering idiot!

What I am telling you is that your doctrine doesn't have any way of accounting for WHY he called Paul as an apostle if his message was identical to that of the Twelve! Why didn't he just use the twelve guys He had just spent the last three years training and that He had just given the Holy Spirit too as well as the great commission?

Okay! That's IT! I'm not discussing this with you any longer. All I'm doing is repeating myself to a brick wall.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I have not said anything about the Bible or God's word being arbitrary here anywhere. I don't know why you would think I believe or think that way. Apparently this is something you have thought about yourself.

You have got to be kidding me!
You are impossible to communicate with. Just go believe whatever you want. I'm done.
 
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