'Western Wall' built long after Herod's death - 'Wailing @ the Wrong Wall'

[chair]

Yes, that is the purpose of a mikveh. Those coming from the fortress felt defiled.

John 18:28: "Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium lest they should be defiled but that they might eat the Passover."

You are so stuck on your theory that you aren't making sense.

 

[chair]

I don't let doctrine define history, so no need.

It seems to me we are talking about several different temples, here. Let's say Herod's was built on the the "temple Mount." That doesn't mean Solomon's or Nehemiah's temples were in the same spot. All indications point to the City of David being south of the current site. Why do we not look for the site of Solomon's temple there?

Well, where does the Bible say that Solomons' Temple was built?

 

[beameup]

Now when Hezekiah saw that Sennacherib had come and that he intended to make war on Jerusalem, he decided with his officers and his warriors to cut off the supply of water from the springs which were outside the city [to the east], and they helped him. So many people assembled and stopped up all the springs and the stream which flowed through the region, saying, “Why should the kings of Assyria come and find abundant water?” And he took courage and rebuilt all the wall that had been broken down and erected towers on it, and built another outside wall and strengthened the Millo [Ophel] in the City of David, and made weapons and shields in great number. - 2 Chronicles 32:2-5

Sennacherib's army was denied a prolonged siege position because he was denied the only supply of water in the area (ie: Gihon Spring). The Ophel/Millo was the area north of the City of David and south of the so-called "Temple Mount". There was the vulnerability of attack from the north (ie: the so-called "Temple Mount").

 

[jamie]

Well, where does the Bible say that Solomons' Temple was built?

Solomon's temple was built on one of the mountains in the land of Moriah where Abraham was sent to sacrifice Isaac.

Genesis 22:2: "Then He said, 'Take now your son, your only son Isaac whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.'"

Was the Temple built on Mount Moriah?

2 Chronicles 3:1: "Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on "Mount" Moriah where the LORD had appeared to his father David at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

The threshing floor is never identified in scripture as being on Mount Moriah.

With regard to the so-called "Mount Moriah" the Hebrew for mount is har which can refer to mountains or a mountain depending on the context.

Ezekiel 47:1-2: "Then he brought me back to the door of the temple and there was water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east, the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple south of the altar. He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east and there was water running out on the right side."

The source of this running water is the Gihon Spring.

 

[chair]

...

2 Chronicles 3:1: "Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on "Mount" Moriah where the LORD had appeared to his father David at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

The threshing floor is never identified in scripture as being on Mount Moriah.

I don't follow. You just quoted a verse that identifies it as such.
Note that threshing floors are not typically inside cities.

With regard to the so-called "Mount Moriah" the Hebrew for mount is har which can refer to mountains or a mountain depending on the context.

Ezekiel 47:1-2: "Then he brought me back to the door of the temple and there was water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east, the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple south of the altar. He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east and there was water running out on the right side."

The source of this running water is the Gihon Spring.

It sounds like this prophecy of Ezekiel is where the idea that the Temple was built on top of the Gihon comes from. Note that it is a vision- not a report of the current reality.

 

[beameup]

Ezekiel 47:1-2: "Then he brought me back to the door of the temple and there was water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east, the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple south of the altar. He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east and there was water running out on the right side."

Ezekiel chapters 40-48 deal with the Messianic (Millennial) Temple. I believe that the topography will be significantly changed in that area during the Great and Terrible "Day of the LORD". It says that from the Messiah's Temple a river will flow from the Temple to the east, into the Dead Sea, and heal the waters thereof.

 

[beameup]

David captured the stronghold of ZION, that is the City of David. David said on that day, “Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him reach the lame and the blind, who are hated by David’s soul, through the water tunnel.” Therefore they say, “The blind or the lame shall not come into the house.” So David lived in the stronghold and called it the City of David. And David built all around from the Millo/Ophel = [south of Haram al Sharif] and inward [bayith].
2 Samuel 5:7-9

 

[jamie]

I don't follow. You just quoted a verse that identifies it as such.

I'll help you.

Genesis 22:2: "Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

Mountains is from the Hebrew har.

2 Chronicles 3:1: "Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah where the LORD had appeared to his father David at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

Mount is from the Hebrew har.

In scripture har is translated as mountains and as mount.

Mount Moriah was not the only mountain in the land of Moriah.

There was more than one mountain in the land of Moriah.

"It was a wonderful location, on a mountain top 834 meters above sea level, with vast military and historical significance. Indeed, it was from Mount Scopus that Roman General Titus commanded the siege, conquest, and destruction of Jerusalem during the Great Revolt nearly 2,000 years ago."
(http://www.timesofisrael.com/history-on-high-at-mount-scopus/)

Also there was Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, and Mount Moriah in the land of Moriah.

Which was the correct mountain for the Temple? Answer: The one with water in David's day.

 

[jamie]

Ezekiel chapters 40-48 deal with the Messianic (Millennial) Temple. I believe that the topography will be significantly changed in that area during the Great and Terrible "Day of the LORD". It says that from the Messiah's Temple a river will flow from the Temple to the east, into the Dead Sea, and heal the waters thereof.

Do you believe that the topography of Zion was significantly changed in Titus' day?

Do you believe the Gihon Spring will be moved?

 

[chair]

Which was the correct mountain for the Temple?

2 Chronicles 3:1: "Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah where the LORD had appeared to his father David at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."​

There is your answer. In black and white.

Answer: The one with water in David's day.

That is not in any verse. And you will have to explain why the spring at the bottom of the city of David is called a mountain.

Water sources for ancient cities are often at the foot of the city, so most of the city (or even all) is much higher than the water source. Megiddo is an example.

 

[beameup]

I'll help you.

Genesis 22:2: "Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

Mountains is from the Hebrew har.

2 Chronicles 3:1: "Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah where the LORD had appeared to his father David at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

Mount is from the Hebrew har.

In scripture har is translated as mountains and as mount.

Mount Moriah was not the only mountain in the land of Moriah.

There was more than one mountain in the land of Moriah.

"It was a wonderful location, on a mountain top 834 meters above sea level, with vast military and historical significance. Indeed, it was from Mount Scopus that Roman General Titus commanded the siege, conquest, and destruction of Jerusalem during the Great Revolt nearly 2,000 years ago."
(http://www.timesofisrael.com/history-on-high-at-mount-scopus/)

Also there was Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, and Mount Moriah in the land of Moriah.

Which was the correct mountain for the Temple? Answer: The one with water in David's day.

The "ridge system" has 3 "levels". The highest point is Moriah, where Abraham offered up his ONLY son and later became to place where the Roman crucifixions took place.
Mt. Zion is at the "lowest level" of the ridge system.
Mount Zion = City of David = Temple location

 

[Wick Stick]

Well, where does the Bible say that Solomons' Temple was built?

At the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite. Or possibly Ornan the Jebusite. Presumably the same person. No directions are given, other than "up," which applies to all mountains.

It turns out this passage contains one of the difficult contradictions of the Bible, as it records David's buying price as 50 shekels of silver in Samuel, but 600 shekels of gold in Chronicles. That's roughly the difference in price between a new outhouse and a new house.

Also of note the text in Hebrew confusingly seems to indicate that Araunah/Ornan was "the king," then turns around and calls David "the king" in the same verse. It appears that he was someone of note, and the variation in his name may be due to a foreign-language sufficing meant to indicate his station.

There is some question of the meaning of 'threshingfloor' as well, with some scholars arguing that the word used indicates a pagan site used for fertility rites, rather than for threshing wheat. A mountaintop is a lousy location for a mundane threshingfloor, as it requires you to transport all your wheat up a mountain. By contrast, the seats of most Canaanite rituals are consistently "high places."

Textual critics find that the 2nd account, in Chronicles, contains significant embellishment on the 1st account, in Samuel, as evidenced by the greatly exaggerated amount of money David paid for the site in the (later?) account.

As such, it also calls into question whether the site truly was Abraham's Mt. Moriah, as that is stated only in Chronicles, and neglected in the Samuel account. Another embellishment, to add to the prestige of the place?

I think if we combine a couple of those ideas with some other parts of Jewish history, an interesting new picture emerges. Could it be that David conquered Jerusalem, the hitherto-unconquerable-mountain-stronghold of the Jebusite king by using his checkbook, rather than his sword?

Or perhaps the "angel" changed who the vassal-king of Jerusalem was due to changing alliances, and forced David to compensate the former vassal-king.

 

[Wick Stick]

Ezekiel chapters 40-48 deal with the Messianic (Millennial) Temple. I believe that the topography will be significantly changed in that area during the Great and Terrible "Day of the LORD". It says that from the Messiah's Temple a river will flow from the Temple to the east, into the Dead Sea, and heal the waters thereof.

If you read a little further down that chapter, it indicates that the Dead Sea will be "given to salt." It is only the system of hot springs in the area that are "healed."

The Dead Sea (and the Jordan River that feeds it) sits in a tectonic rift zone, so hot springs (the kind that give bitter smelly water full of sulfur and alkali metals) are prevalent in the area.

 

[beameup]

Israel Antiquities Authority find coins under the foundation of the Western Wall that date to 18 A.D.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45419597/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/coin-discovery-sheds-new-light-sacred-jerusalem-site/#.WIsa5bvau00

Coins found under Jerusalem’s Western Wall date to 17-18 A.D., 20 years after Herod's death
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2065254/Coins-Jerusalems-Western-Wall-hints-sacred-site-older-Herod.html

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter - Proverbs 25:2a

 

[beameup]

The only difficulty is that he didn't do what a messiah is supposed to do. And he hasn't come back- even though he said he would during the lives of his followers.

So, no thanks.

Messiah will "do what a Messiah is supposed to do" at the end of the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" aka: "The Day of the LORD".
Have you ever winnowed grain on a threshing floor? I have, it's not a pleasant experience for the grain, but it does separate the grain from the chaff.