Were There Two Different Jesuses?

[Caino]

The Jews spent a lot of time trying to get rid of Jesus while he was on the earth teaching his original gospel which was a threat to the Jewish authority and the sham that is their exaggerated history. Today they are right here on this forum trying to get rid of him still.

Israel is museum to a broken promise, erroneous human speculation, racial and cultural pride confused as faith.

 

[Crucible]

The Jews spent a lot of time trying to get rid of Jesus while he was on the earth teaching his original gospel which was a threat to the Jewish authority and the sham that is their exaggerated history. Today they are right here on this forum trying to get rid of him still.

Israel is museum to a broken promise, erroneous human speculation, racial and cultural pride confused as faith.

The Christ is not simply just mercy and forgiveness. He is also the Lion of Judah- a mighty, mighty fist not to be underestimated.

 

[Tyrathca]

Islam came 500 years after Christianity,

So? Zoroastrianism is even older than Christianity, did that matter?

Was Mohammed insane or not? If not what?

Mormons aren't recognized by either the Roman, Anglican, or Protestant communions as Christian.

So? They would say you are heathens who just need to have faith.

Was Joseph Smith insane or not? If not what?

Just because heresy exists doesn't mean Yeshua was not the Messiah in and of the divine Creator.

Not my point at all. You said either Jesus was insane or he was the Messiah, with the obvious implication you thought improbable he be insane. I'm introducing you to the idea that other explanations exist for fantastical claims of divine inspiration (and that insanity forming religions isn't as you'd think)

This is the atheist's blunder- supposing you can just dismiss the Lion of Judah, a mere carpenter in a backwash desert who changed the entire course of human history.

And Mohammed was a mere orphan and merchant who also changed the course of history. He even one upped Jesus and changed history within his lifetime, unlike Jesus who really only changed history decades later through the stories told about him (not all of which are likely to be true, sadly an all knowing god didn't know that writing things down was a good idea...)

Fortunately I don't think meek beginnings and an impact on history are much sign of importance beyond historical interest. Especially when it wasn't really him making the impact but people telling (and probably inventing) stories about him decades layer which made the impact.

 

[Crucible]

So? Zoroastrianism is even older than Christianity, did that matter?

Was Mohammed insane or not? If not what?

So? They would say you are heathens who just need to have faith.

Was Joseph Smith insane or not? If not what?

Not my point at all. You said either Jesus was insane or he was the Messiah, with the obvious implication you thought improbable he be insane. I'm introducing you to the idea that other explanations exist for fantastical claims of divine inspiration (and that insanity forming religions isn't as you'd think)

And Mohammed was a mere orphan and merchant who also changed the course of history. He even one upped Jesus and changed history within his lifetime, unlike Jesus who really only changed history decades later through the stories told about him (not all of which are likely to be true, sadly an all knowing god didn't know that writing things down was a good idea...)

Fortunately I don't think meek beginnings and an impact on history are much sign of importance beyond historical interest. Especially when it wasn't really him making the impact but people telling (and probably inventing) stories about him decades layer which made the impact.

Islam is the bastard child of Abraham, who rose from Ishmael as Isaac was the prodigal father of the Jews.

By the time Mohammad produced his literature, Christianity was already the state religion of Rome.

The truth can be found by simple deduction- Judaism goes all the way back to the dawn of man, and unlike Islam, boasts a God-made into-man upon Earth scenario.

Christianity does not utilize other religion, other religions however steal from it. Islam especially- they reduce Jesus to being a mere prophet.

 

[Tyrathca]

Islam is the bastard child of Abraham, who rose from Ishmael as Isaac was the prodigal father of the Jews.

By the time Mohammad produced his literature, Christianity was already the state religion of Rome.

So? Christianity wasn't the first religion so why does it coming before Islam matter? Or that it had been used as a means of political control already (much like Islam was really...)

You still haven't answered the question, was Mohammed insane? Why do you fear this question so much?

The truth can be found by simple deduction- Judaism goes all the way back to the dawn of man, and unlike Islam, boasts a God-made into-man upon Earth scenario.

Why is that a boast? And what has that got to do with what I'm asking?

(i get the feeling you're not actually reading what I post just looking for key words...)

Christianity does not utilize other religion, other religions however steal from it. Islam especially- they reduce Jesus to being a mere prophet.

So? Why is that important?

I'm surprised though you actual think Christianity is original though.



But all that is irrelevant to the question of do you think all the founders of other religions were insane?

Was Mohammed?

Or Zoroaster? (founder of Zoroastrianism, an ancient religion pre-dating Christianity by millennia predicting a virgin giving birth to a saviour of the world. Awkward... )

 

[Wick Stick]

You are being hypothetical and, hypothesis is a false way to study History. When this is applied, nothing of either case was true. Going that way you could be planning to derail the whole of History which only jeopardizes the existence of both; the one of Matthew and the one of Luke.

I'm not studying history right now. I'm discussing it with a learned friend. Hypothesis is a fine way to enliven discussion.

History might not end in a fiery trainwreck, even if we bring our speculations to study-time, and prove or disprove them.

Jarrod

 

[Wick Stick]

And don't forget me that, while I am here I could be of some help harmonizing the Pentateuch. I had a course in Judaica at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles.

I would love to discuss this topic.

Where do you stand on the Documentary Hypothesis? What chronology do you follow?

Jarrod

 

[Wick Stick]

On this total count system,...we could scrutinize the entire Bible itself, as a collection of written works, by various authors, in different time periods and cultural contexts, as being subject to so many variations, imperfections, interpolations, redactions, scribal agendas, creative doctoring, literary devices and the list can go on..........welcome to humanity.

To be intellectually honest, one must acknowledge and account for contradictions in the Bible, however one chooses to explain, understand or resolve such complexities. They are what they are. Lump it.

Been there. Done that. Have the t-shirt.

Jarrod

 

[Wick Stick]

You still haven't answered the question, was Mohammed insane?

I don't think so... an iconoclast for sure, but that is no madness.

Jarrod

 

[freelight]

Buy the myth......

Buy the myth......

Been there. Done that. Have the t-shirt.

Jarrod

The question is....are you still wearing it?

 

[Tyrathca]

I don't think so... an iconoclast for sure, but that is no madness.

Jarrod

I'm guessing you're not of the school of "thought" Crucible is in which believes that Jesus must be the messiah because the only other explanation for him was insanity (with the implicit assumption being he couldn't possibly be insane). I think it's a silly dichotomy like you do. :thumb:

 

[Wick Stick]

I'm guessing you're not of the school of "thought" Crucible is in which believes that Jesus must be the messiah because the only other explanation for him was insanity (with the implicit assumption being he couldn't possibly be insane). I think it's a silly dichotomy like you do. :thumb:

I thought we were talking about Mohammad? Are we talking about CS Lewis' "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument?

Or... are you applying Lewis' logic to to Mohammad? Either way you slice it, Lewis' tri-chotomy fails on the point that there is a 4th option - that he was simply mistaken.

Jarrod

 

[Tyrathca]

I thought we were talking about Mohammad?

If you follow the conversation back a bit you can see me trying to make a point about Crucibles remarks about Jesus by applying it to other religious founders (Mohammed being the most well known but not the only one I mentioned)

Are we talking about CS Lewis' "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument?

Probably, though Crucible seems to have shortened it.

Or... are you applying Lewis' logic to to Mohammad? Either way you slice it, Lewis' tri-chotomy fails on the point that there is a 4th option - that he was simply mistaken.

Agreed, that was the same reasoning I tried to coax Crucible towards. Not that he/she really engaged with my questions.
P.S. If you look to the left you'll see I'm an Atheist.

 

[Wick Stick]

P.S. If you look to the left you'll see I'm an Atheist.

Well, nobody's perfect. I'm a Christian who refuses to shut my eyes or turn off my brain.

Jarrod

 

[Bright Raven]

If you follow the conversation back a bit you can see me trying to make a point about Crucibles remarks about Jesus by applying it to other religious founders (Mohammed being the most well known but not the only one I mentioned)
Probably, though Crucible seems to have shortened it.
Agreed, that was the same reasoning I tried to coax Crucible towards. Not that he/she really engaged with my questions.
P.S. If you look to the left you'll see I'm an Atheist.

One of those fellows who does not believe in God even though there Is one?

 

[Tyrathca]

One of those fellows who does not believe in God even though there Is one?

Aren't you one of those fellows who believes there is a god even when there is not one?

 

[Tyrathca]

Well, nobody's perfect. I'm a Christian who refuses to shut my eyes or turn off my brain.

Jarrod

And I'm an Atheist who refuses to shut my eyes or turn off my brain either. So we have something in common

 

[Ben Masada]

The Jews spent a lot of time trying to get rid of Jesus while he was on the earth teaching his original gospel which was a threat to the Jewish authority and the sham that is their exaggerated history. Today they are right here on this forum trying to get rid of him still.

Israel is museum to a broken promise, erroneous human speculation, racial and cultural pride confused as faith.

You are totally mistaken Caino, the original gospel of Jesus was the Tanach. As that is concerned, there was no controversy between the Jews and Jesus. Any thing for that matter was an anti-Jewish slender with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Ben Masada]

I'm not studying history right now. I'm discussing it with a learned friend. Hypothesis is a fine way to enliven discussion.

History might not end in a fiery trainwreck, even if we bring our speculations to study-time, and prove or disprove them.

Jarrod

Hypothesis could perhaps be a fine way to enliven discussion but if you are debating atheists, not religion. Perhaps speculations could be more of the kind.

 

[Ben Masada]

I would love to discuss this topic.

Where do you stand on the Documentary Hypothesis? What chronology do you follow?

Jarrod

Only History requires chronology, unless we are dealing with psychological History as we encounter phases in the whole of the Tanach between Torah and the historical writings.