Wayne Grudem on why Christians (and everyone else) should vote for Trump

musterion

Well-known member
http://townhall.com/columnists/wayn...onald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564

As mere details and description of the current situation, much of this is dead on (not that that's hard to do...just look around and pay attention). It's the appeals backed by wrong assumptions and misused Scripture that is the problem. As [MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION] correctly stated,

Politics is not why we are here as this world is on a course (2 Timothy 3:13 KJV, Ephesians 2:2 KJV) that is different than the course the Lord has us on (2 Timothy 1:8-10 KJV)! We are not change agents (or double agents for that matter Colossians 3:1-4 KJV, Philippians 3:20 KJV), but ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:18-21 KJV)! May we finish our course with joy (2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV)!
 

musterion

Well-known member

As a snapshot, the first link is about Trump; the second is more about Grudem and the case he made for Trump. But my point is what Heir said...it isn't about supporting any particular candidate, it's about believers being deeply involved in this process at all. That's (hopefully) the point of discussion here, not what we already know about Trump and Clinton.
 

DavidK

New member
As a snapshot, the first link is about Trump; the second is more about Grudem and the case he made for Trump.

Yes.

But my point is what Heir said...it isn't about supporting any particular candidate, it's about believers being deeply involved in this process at all. That's (hopefully) the point of discussion here, not what we already know about Trump and Clinton.

Ah, thanks, that clarification helps. I missed the context of Heir's post, and thus the context of your OP, and was misled by the thread title.

As horrific as this election continues to be, I see it as a gift from God, because it has got the Church into a serious discussion about what our place is in the world. We are questioning our witness in a way that couldn't have happened in the 50s or 80s. A lot of the traditions of man are shaking violently, and that's causing some to look for the unshakable core.

Which brings me back to my links. Are they really off-topic, even if I'm now reading you correctly and you want to talk about what the Church's role is in regards to the political process?

The core of Mr. Reynolds argument (first link), as I read it, is that getting so invested in the results of the election that we would choose to support a man who glories in his sinfulness to keep another from gaining the office is a short route to undermining our witness to the world. On the surface it's about Trump, but underneath it's about our relationship to the political process.
 

marke

Well-known member
http://townhall.com/columnists/wayn...onald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564

As mere details and description of the current situation, much of this is dead on (not that that's hard to do...just look around and pay attention). It's the appeals backed by wrong assumptions and misused Scripture that is the problem. As [MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION] correctly stated,

Christians are salt and light, set on a hill to resist corruption and to bear witness of eternal things that matter. Christians work in mines, as policemen, as soldiers, as lawyers, as businessmen, as politicians, etc. Some of us have been led to try to make a difference by being good influences in determining how our nation is to be governed. I thank God He has people doing things for the good of the nation and the world.
 
"Even I've heard all I can stand!" - Satan

hillary-777x425.png
 

musterion

Well-known member
Which brings me back to my links. Are they really off-topic, even if I'm now reading you correctly and you want to talk about what the Church's role is in regards to the political process?

No, the links are okay. The issue here is whether believers actually HAVE a place in the political process as it now exists, since (a) it entangles them in the passing affairs of a doomed world, taking their focus off of Christ our Head, (b) even marginal involvement beyond voting inevitably ties them in common cause with those who hate Christ or who are religious but lost, and (c) it seems so very easy to be compromised or corrupted by it, if one actually becomes involved in the process itself.

I used to say it's a matter of liberty under grace, and that is still true. But what politics has become...and perhaps always has been...runs counter to what the apostle Paul warned us against, as Heir pointed out. But it's open for discussion.

But one thing is beyond question: this whole system will grow worse, and it will ultimately be erased in the outpoured wrath of God. As unique as America is (was), it will not be exempt.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Christians are salt and light, set on a hill to resist corruption and to bear witness of eternal things that matter. Christians work in mines, as policemen, as soldiers, as lawyers, as businessmen, as politicians, etc. Some of us have been led to try to make a difference by being good influences in determining how our nation is to be governed. I thank God He has people doing things for the good of the nation and the world.

None of which will save it, though. Many people today (professing Christians) seem convinced that they can. That's one of the issues here.
 

DavidK

New member
No, the links are okay. The issue here is whether believers actually HAVE a place in the political process as it now exists, since (a) it entangles them in the passing affairs of a doomed world, taking their focus off of Christ our Head, (b) even marginal involvement beyond voting inevitably ties them in common cause with those who hate Christ or who are religious but lost, and (c) it seems so very easy to be compromised or corrupted by it, if one actually becomes involved in the process itself.

I used to say it's a matter of liberty under grace, and that is still true. But what politics has become...and perhaps always has been...runs counter to what the apostle Paul warned us against, as Heir pointed out. But it's open for discussion.

But one thing is beyond question: this whole system will grow worse, and it will ultimately be erased in the outpoured wrath of God. As unique as America is (was), it will not be exempt.

Agreed.

Being in the world, but not of the world seems like a key. I see all of your points if we play the game, so to speak, by the game's rules. If you want to win in politics, you have to ally with people with some similar agendas even though you may find them or their other agendas repugnant. You have to compromise and "play nice" with enough people to gain a majority.

But Jesus refused to play by the established rules. When the Pharisees came to him with a trap between option 1 or option 2, he gave them option 3, putting a lie to the tired refrain that if you don't vote for 1 you are by default voting for 2.

John the Baptist had no vote, but had a powerful witness to Herod. There's a place for the Church, apart from our individual vote, in witnessing to all the parties of their shortcomings and sounding a call toward something better. Once we've decided to win on earthly terms, however, we cease being a witness to a portion of the system, which means we cease being a witness to all.

It's really a test of faith. Do we believe that we can pursue righteousness with out compromise and let God worry about the results, or do we need to get practical and make sure God doesn't lose the country.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
When God wants to judge a nation, He gives them wicked rulers.
~John Calvin

Protip: Prepare for Judgement.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 (NASB)

49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.
 

musterion

Well-known member
It's really a test of faith. Do we believe that we can pursue righteousness with out compromise and let God worry about the results, or do we need to get practical and make sure God doesn't lose the country.

It's comments like that that baffle me. In what sense did God ever have this country? When was the U.S., morally or spiritually speaking, any better by God's standards than any other? How could we ever prove that God thought it was? Because some of the founders may have thought so, or because some modern historians say the founders thought so? What would any of that prove from God's point of view?

This nation is at no risk of being "lost to God" because it was never actually His in the sense many believe it was. Was it more morally upright than most, for a time? Yes, but so was England in the late 1800s. A few African nations today put us to shame, in terms of human morality.

But God has had exactly ONE special beloved nation in all of human history, and the U.S. is not it. Never was. For now, he has no such nation. To paraphrase one of the old timers here, nationally it's now it's a case of cleaner or dirtier rats...but all are still rats.

No offense intended, so please don't take any.
 

DavidK

New member
It's comments like that that baffle me. In what sense did God ever have this country? When was the U.S., morally or spiritually speaking, any better by God's standards than any other? And how would we KNOW that it was? Because some of the founders seemed to think so, or because modern historians say they thought so? What would any of that prove from God's point of view? I don't believe this nation is at risk of being "lost to God" because it was never actually His in the sense many believe it was. Was it more morally upright than most, for a time? Yes, but so was England in the late 1800s. A few African nations today put us to shame, in terms of human morality.

But God has had exactly ONE special beloved nation in all of human history, and the U.S. is not it. Never was. For now, he has no such nation.

No offense intended, so please don't take any.

No offense, I completely agree with you. I apparently wasn't clear in what I wrote. I don't think the scripture calls us to save countries nor follow expediency.

That has, however, been the choice of a large portion of the church for a while.
 

musterion

Well-known member
No offense, I completely agree with you. I apparently wasn't clear in what I wrote. I don't think the scripture calls us to save countries nor follow expediency.

Right.

That has, however, been the choice of a large portion of the church for a while.

You mean to try to save it? Yes. I'm just old enough to recall the Moral Majority, then "Reclaiming America for Christ." There's been lots of branches off of the basic myth that America is special to God. Then couple that with theonomists, reconstructionists, Kingdom Now...some of whom intend to make the Kingdom on earth by force, if necessary. There's at least one of them here on TOL, or was once.
 

marke

Well-known member
None of which will save it, though. Many people today (professing Christians) seem convinced that they can. That's one of the issues here.

We don't stop fighting against evil just because we think we will never win. Whether we win or lose makes no difference. The outcome is in God's hand and the responsibility to fight corruption is our responsibility from God.
 

aCultureWarrior

BANNED
Banned
LIFETIME MEMBER
As @heir correctly stated,

Politics is not why we are here as this world is on a course (2 Timothy 3:13 KJV, Ephesians 2:2 KJV) that is different than the course the Lord has us on (2 Timothy 1:8-10 KJV)! We are not change agents (or double agents for that matter Colossians 3:1-4 KJV, Philippians 3:20 KJV), but ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:18-21 KJV)! May we finish our course with joy (2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV)!

Heir needs to get out more. It's the American system of government (i.e. politics) that gives her the right to own a Bible, openly read it and share the Christian faith with others.

Tell her to try doing that in places like Iran or North Korea.

Regarding Trump cheerleader Wayne Grudem telling Christians who they should vote for:

The Bible states what kind of men God wants to be leaders, as well as defining the role of civil government. The unrepentant adulterer/pornographer, LGBTQ ally, fan of Planned Parenthood, etc. etc. etc. doesn't even come close to fitting the bill when it comes to God's expectations.

Maybe Grudem should pick up a Bible and try reading it sometime.
 

aCultureWarrior

BANNED
Banned
LIFETIME MEMBER
We don't stop fighting against evil just because we think we will never win. Whether we win or lose makes no difference. The outcome is in God's hand and the responsibility to fight corruption is our responsibility from God.

When the inevitable time comes (hopefully decades from now), I've asked my wife to put these words on my headstone.

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Timothy 4:7
 
Top