Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified . . . .

[Cross Reference]

For the record, I love your utilization of "exegete." I find that very few use such accurate terminology when discussing deeper topics, that benefit from such words.

Thank you, Jsanford.

Would you consider "exegeting" this passage? I think I am on to something and wish to see if anyone else might see it.i.e., two ways it could go but both being of Jesus Christ, the man, as the "first of first fruits":

Ephesians 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[jsanford108]

Thank you, Jsanford.

Would you consider "exegeting" this passage? I think I am on to something and wish to see if anyone else might see it.i.e., two ways it could go but both being of Jesus Christ, the man, as the "first of first fruits":

Ephesians 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I would say that this passage states that Christ is our only hope of heaven. Ordained by God, since the dawn of creation.

It even seems to establish a physical church. Note verses 20-22. It appears to suggest a physical organization, founded upon the Apostles, with Christ as cornerstone (the source of Truth, and that which holds it fast). A place to grow in spirit and in the knowledge of God.

Granted, this is simply my initial interpretation.

I apologize for the delay, as I have been quite busy.

 

[keypurr]

This does not support either your claim, not mine.

However, the verse right before does support the doctrine of Christ being God. Simon says "You are the Son of the Living God." This is not a light phrase to throw around. A sonship, especially in Hebrew culture was an inheritance. IE: a taking over. A prince takes over the kingdom, gaining the power that the king had. Likewise, a son inherits his father's estate, and actually (hopefully) enhances it. Making it superior to its former status. To call Christ "the Son of God," is saying He is equal to God. If Christ is not God, this is blasphemy and against God's Commandments passed to Moses. God cannot contradict Himself. Therefore, Christ being elevated in such a way would violate God's Law, unless Christ was God Incarnate.

Thus, logically, we can conclude that Christ, in order to possess the title "Son of God," must be God Incarnate.


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You assume way to much, the Son of God is not God, he is the Son of.

The Son of a King is not the King, he is a Prince.

God is a position, the one who holds that position is YHWH.

The Universe was not created by a man called Jesus. Man did not exist at that time.


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[jsanford108]

You assume way to much, the Son of God is not God, he is the Son of.

The Son of a King is not the King, he is a Prince.

God is a position, the one who holds that position is YHWH.

The Universe was not created by a man called Jesus. Man did not exist at that time.


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You are placing human limits and constrictions onto Christ/God.

If Christ is elevated to a position of worship, then the first commandment is being broken. Saying Christ rules with God is blasphemous if Christ is a man.

If God raised your "Man Christ" to this position, then God has broken his own commandment. Now, we know that God cannot/will not break a commandment. So either Christ is God Incarnate, or God has contradicted himself and broken his own commandment, by elevating a man to a position of worship and rule in heaven.


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[Cross Reference]

You are placing human limits and constrictions onto Christ/God.

If Christ is elevated to a position of worship, then the first commandment is being broken. Saying Christ rules with God is blasphemous if Christ is a man.

If God raised your "Man Christ" to this position, then God has broken his own commandment. Now, we know that God cannot/will not break a commandment. So either Christ is God Incarnate, or God has contradicted himself and broken his own commandment, by elevating a man to a position of worship and rule in heaven.


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"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
Isaiah 48:11-12 (KJV)

Please reconcile this with the above verse:

".. . . . the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"
John 17:22(KJV)

Was Jesus merely being presumptuous? He knew the OT and lived by it.

 

[jamie]

You assume way to much, the Son of God is not God, he is the Son of.

And we know a son can never inherit his father's business, right?

 

[jamie]

"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
Isaiah 48:11-12 (KJV)

He will not give his glory to another other than those described in the preceding verse.

After all, he is the first and also he is the last.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

John 1

The Eternal Word - Note: Jesus Christ very Creator and God

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John's Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh - Note: the eternal, pre-existent Word, very God, aforementioned

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' "

 

[Cross Reference]

He will not give his glory to another other than those described in the preceding verse.

After all, he is the first and also he is the last.

Isa.48:11 was God speaking. John 17:22 was the man Jesus speaking of How God gave it to him. God gave His Glory to a man. How could God do that because it shows the Man Jesus being equal with God. . . which Jesus knew people would not understand. He said that too. Jesus became the one new man Eph 2 speaks of. Read it.

 

[Cross Reference]

John 1

The Eternal Word - Note: Jesus Christ very Creator and God

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John's Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh - Note: the eternal, pre-existent Word, very God, aforementioned

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' "

And then subordinated His Glory to the flesh and blood of Jesus. . . the man.

 

[jamie]

Isa.48:11 was God speaking. John 17:22 was the man Jesus speaking of How God gave it to him. God gave His Glory to a man. How could God do that because it shows the Man Jesus being equal with God. . . which Jesus knew people would not understand. He said that too. Jesus became the one new man Eph 2 speaks of. Read it.

We are the begotten children of the Most High created in his image and likeness. As his family we will carry on his creation.

We have the same spiritual parents as Jesus, out brother.

Only God has eternal life.

 

[jamie]

Jesus knew people would not understand.

And this is why he spoke to the people in parables lest they understand.

 

[Cross Reference]

And this is why he spoke to the people in parables lest they understand.

Keep your rabbits in your cage, will ya. <good grief>

 

[jsanford108]

"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
Isaiah 48:11-12 (KJV)

Please reconcile this with the above verse:

".. . . . the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"
John 17:22(KJV)

Was Jesus merely being presumptuous? He knew the OT and lived by it.

I would say that the verse you provide from John's Gospel further confirms that Christ is God. Saying "even as we are one" is easily understood as "oneness," aka: the hypostatic nature of Christ.


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[Cross Reference]

I would say that the verse you provide from John's Gospel further confirms that Christ is God. Saying "even as we are one" is easily understood as "oneness," aka: the hypostatic nature of Christ.

It speaks of intimacy not biology. Have you ever read John 17 in its entirety?

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:22-24 (KJV)

 

[jamie]

Keep your rabbits in your cage, will ya. <good grief>

Are you saying Jesus did not speak in parables?

 

[jsanford108]

It speaks of intimacy not biology. Have you ever read John 17 in its entirety?

Yes, I have read the entirety of the Gospels several times. And time and again, the only logical conclusion that is reachable is Christ being God Incarnate.

Hypostatic nature is not a biological term, more of a theological term. It is utilized to describe the reality of Christ being 100% man, and 100% God.

 

[jsanford108]

It speaks of intimacy not biology. Have you ever read John 17 in its entirety?

If you don't mind, I will attempt to demonstrate Christ being God Incarnate (Aka: a Trinity)

All we need to really demonstrate this is the Baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17)

After Christ is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends as a dove, and God speaks, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (KJV) At this moment, three very distinct, clear, and tremendous events have occurred. If one accepts the Trinity, then all three beings are present, in three distinctly different forms, all at once. But, as denying Christ being Incarnate, one must reject the Trinity. So let us progress.

God says "This is my beloved Son." If, as I believe I quoted earlier, we apply Hebrew understanding of Sonship, this is very significant. Sonship is a very high position. The son inherits all that is the father's, including the father's authority. With the hopes, even, of increasing the wealth. When God says "This is my Son," God is saying that Christ is inheriting all that is God's. God is declaring Christ has equal authority to himself. Christ affirms this in the Gospels (even going so far, proving the hypostatic nature further, by declaring "I and the Father are one."). If Christ is God Incarnate, then this passage makes perfect sense, and is not contradictory to any Scripture. If Christ is solely man, imputed with the Holy Spirit, God is breaking his own commandment, by making Christ his equal. This would be contradictory to God's Word, therefore, rendering God not the fullness of Truth.

But we can even trace this reality of Christ always being with God, as well as the Trinity, back to Genesis. When we read the Creation, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep." And God said, "Let us make man in our image." Once again, all three members of the Trinity are present. If it was solely God moving upon the face of the deep, why does it say, "Spirit of God." If God was talking to the angels, why did he say "Our Image." The angels do not have a static image. They constantly change. Also, angels are not created in the image of God, as far as we have evidence of. Therefore, with the reality that Christ would become man, this phrase reveals even deeper truths, further pointing to Christ being One with God. Especially with the knowledge that Christ was human, this phrase bears great weight, and proves that God and Christ are One.

Other things to consider: If Christ were mere man, then He could not utter the phrase, "I and the Father are One," without being blasphemous.

If Christ were mere man, the Holy Spirit could not be His paternal source. Mary was a Virgin, no? Mere men must have physical paternal sources.

By Christ having an Immaculate Conception, and a Virgin Birth, it necessitates that He be more than mere mortal man, IE: God Incarnate. It would also point to God being eternal, since the conception by the Holy Spirit (being God) enabling Christ to be born (as God), God would be eternal, having no beginning, but simply always being. (I know this is deep and gets heavy very quickly)

 

[jamie]

God says "This is my beloved Son."

Which means the Father is the holy Spirit. Simple.

At this time Jesus, being one with the Father, is also the holy Spirit.

Paul explained there is only one body and one Spirit.

The one body is the temple for the one Spirit comprised of Father and Son.

Those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are not his.

Those who have the Spirit of Christ are his bride.

That makes the trinity Father, Son, Bride.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17)

 

[keypurr]

You are placing human limits and constrictions onto Christ/God.

Your making him God

If Christ is elevated to a position of worship, then the first commandment is being broken. Saying Christ rules with God is blasphemous if Christ is a man.

Christ is the servant Son of his Father, not his equal. Christ is the first of all creation, a creature enpowerd by his creator.
He was given the fullness of his Father.

If God raised your "Man Christ" to this position, then God has broken his own commandment. Now, we know that God cannot/will not break a commandment. So either Christ is God Incarnate, or God has contradicted himself and broken his own commandment, by elevating a man to a position of worship and rule in heaven.

God raised Jesus who is the human body that held the Christ (logos)You break the commandment when you acceot the Son as YHWH.




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