Was the fall necessary ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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genuineoriginal
New member
If determinism is true, then the fall (and the entirety of human history) was completely unnecessary.
If free-will is true, then the fall was necessary to prove that God gave mankind free-will.
I don't think you understand what the word "necessary" means.
If determinism is true then every event that occcurs is a logical necessity, by definition.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Care to make an attempt to prove this claim?
Nanja
Well-known member
Yes indeed the fall was necessary !
The fall in Adam, who was an Elect Son of God Luke 3:38, [originally the Federal Head of all God's Elect Sons Eph. 1:4 exclusively]; it was necessary for the fulfillment of God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus for them, that He would be Glorified by their Salvation from sin.
Eph. 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Christ had already been designated from Everlasting, the Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 of all the Elect in the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb. 13:20 before the world began, as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8b to give His Life for the Sheep to Save them from their sins Is. 53:6.
beloved57
Well-known member
Nanja
Well-known member
Yes, sin coming as a result of the fall does bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ.
For every Elect Son of God, because Made in His Image and Likeness Gen. 1:26, shall be conformed to the Image of His Son, and confirmed to be so, when they are given New Birth.
Rom. 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The best (and worst) part about these Calvinist echo chamber threads is that it demonstrates their abject hatred for justice, their earnest desire to twist the word of God to fit their blasphemies and the depraved nature of their deceased minds.
This is what they would like for you to believe...
That God receives glory from having predestined not only that Adam would sin but that every man woman and child in existence would be born evil with no ability to do anything good whatsoever, and that whatever it is they do or don't do was also predestined by God before any of them existed and that the overwhelming majority of them would be sent to an eternal Hell as punishment for those same predestined actions that they neither chose to do nor could have avoided performing.
This is what b57 and Nanja call justice! Don't believe me? Ask them!
Clete
This is what they would like for you to believe...
That God receives glory from having predestined not only that Adam would sin but that every man woman and child in existence would be born evil with no ability to do anything good whatsoever, and that whatever it is they do or don't do was also predestined by God before any of them existed and that the overwhelming majority of them would be sent to an eternal Hell as punishment for those same predestined actions that they neither chose to do nor could have avoided performing.
This is what b57 and Nanja call justice! Don't believe me? Ask them!
Clete
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By asking if the fall was necessary you bring into question the wisdom of the Eternal Almighty and in turn, you cause others to do likewise. Nothing that has been created and brought into being has been done without the wisdom of forethought.
Are you questioning the fall of man or the angelic fall because they differ in reason and purpose.
Are you questioning the fall of man or the angelic fall because they differ in reason and purpose.
6days
New member
I don't get it. Help me understand where our beliefs are different...if they are.
1. God is omniscient.
2. God knew Adam would reject Him (sin)
3. God did not program Adam to sin.
4. God chose us even though there is no righteousness in us.
5. We don't fully understand why God chose us.
1. God is omniscient.
2. God knew Adam would reject Him (sin)
3. God did not program Adam to sin.
4. God chose us even though there is no righteousness in us.
5. We don't fully understand why God chose us.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The LORD God chooses those who believe the gospel for salvation.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Since we can imagine that with our free will no one chose to reject HIM nor chose to rebel against HIM, would not HE have been able to start the heavenly state without any suffering for sin or death? If so, then the fall was NOT necessary in the least even though it was a product of free will.
IF no one was choosing sin and the proof was necessary then HE would have to cause our sin and that negates our free will.
The classical understanding of omniscience is based on pagan Greek philosophy and not the bible. It's foundational premise is the idea that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. It is not biblical - period.
God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable.
God could not have "known" that Adam would sin, in the sense you mean it. God fully expected it and had planned for such an event but that's not the same as "knowing" in the absolute sense of the term.
This is where the Calvinists will disagree with you. They absolutely do believe that Adam's sin was not simply a foregone conclusion but that God Himself planned and infallibly predestined his sin. Adam's sin, according to the Calvinist, was conceived in the mind of God an eternity before Adam ever existed.
In reality, Adam could have chosen not to follow Eve and abstained from eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil but he chose of his own volition to rebel against God. This is why we know that God could not have "known" that Adam would sin. God's absolute foreknowledge would have turned Adam's sin from a real possibility into a logical necessity.
God chooses those who repent and respond to Him in faith.
God did not choose you in any sort of arbitrary manner, which is precisely what the Calvinists teach and believe. They would have you believe that one has faith because God chose them, in reality it's the other way around.
It isn't that complicated. God decided that He would have mercy on those who respond to Him in faith. In various times throughout history, that has taken different forms but today, God's mercy is afforded to those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead. If that's you then you're one of God's chosen not because your faith earns any merit but because of God's choice. It is God's mercy. He can have mercy on whomever He wills to have mercy on so long as justice is preserved, which is what Calvary was all about.
Clete
ttruscott
Well-known member
If we accept the orthodox definition of omniscience they got from the pagan Greeks that GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future, then we must accept that HE knew who would end in hell before HE created them BUT created them anyway!! This seems to blaspheme HIS being the GOD who is love, HIS righteousness and HIS perfect justice. As well it contradicts the verses that claim HE does not want people to die nor does HE take pleasure in death (or hell) so HE would never create those who HE knew would end there: Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and 1 Timothy 2:4...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. How can HE create them knowing they would end in hell if this was HIS desire. It is nonsense.
Lamentations 3:33 For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men. How is creating them to eternal hell not grieving them and if HE did not create them willingly, then who forced HIM to do it?
Given the problems discussed in #1, this cannot be accepted as proven but only as a theological supposition probably based upon a blasphemy.
Indeed. GOD did not program anyone to sin by any means at all including forcing us to be born into Adam's human bloodline and forcing us to inherit his evil without any choice to be evil at all. Again this blasphemes HIS righteous loving justice and contradicts scripture: Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. with Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. IF we do not choose to be evil in HIS sight then HE indeed DOES program us to be evil by forcing us to inherit something sinful from Adam, when there was no reason for HIM to create us in Adam or his sin at all!
Actually HE chose us before our earthly existence: Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. But if there was no righteousness in us then for what reason did HE chose us? AND MORE IMPORTANTLY: Why did HE NOT elect some others?
UNconditional election, that is, choosing us, for no reason (no merit found in us) means that HE must have had NO reason to NOT choose / elect the others because if there was a reason for not choosing them (some disvalue in them), there was also a reason for choosing the others, that is, that they did not partake of the reason for being rejected for election. Since there can have been NO dissmerit in those who were passed over for election which means they were innocent of any guilty or evil or failing in the least, this doctrine of unconditional election forces us to accept the doctrine of the unconditional damnation of innocents, a horrendous blasphemy!
Please consider:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by anyone else's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?
IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unmerited election then also means unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin. What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some angels passed over for election!!!
[ASIDE: It is entirely possible that HIS decision that some to receive unmerited election and others receive unmerited rejection for election with no indication that this decision was loving, righteous or just could have precipitated the Satanic war in heaven BECAUSE HE WAS NOT BEING loving, righteous or just so they committed themselves to war, putting their faith in the belief that YHWH was a false god and a liar, unworthy of being their GOD.]
This is what 'unconditional' implies. It implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit by being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means they were just as acceptable for election as everyone but did not receive it....that is what 'without merit' also means! That does NOT sound like my GOD at all. IF they were passed over for a evil they did then there is merit to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!
SO, if election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning is the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in HIS Son was the reason they were elected based upon the merit of their choice to obey the commandment.
Thus we probably have a precedent for election being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected. And since unconditional election is false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, (you know: at the beginning, the time of the Satanic fall, perhaps).
ttruscott
Well-known member
WE were chosen before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4...and I too believe we chose at that time to accept HIS gospel proclaimed to every creature under heaven at that time as per Col 1:23.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If you believe that the LORD God exists in "time" then the following verse demonstrates that according to His foreknowledge He chose or elected those who believe:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
beloved57
Well-known member
It was through the Fall and men being made sinners Rom 5:12 that God purposed to make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of His Mercy Rom 9:23
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,