ECT WAS ISRAEL REALLY SET ASIDE AND WHEN ??

[DAN P]

Hi to all and there are many who say that Israel was NEVER set aside ??

In Rom 11:8 we read , Just as it has been written , God gave them a spirit of STUPOR , EYES to see not , and EARS to HEAR not and , UNTIL THIS DAY it is TRUE !!

If you see the phrase IT IS WRITTEN is also always in the Greek PERFECT TENSE and that means

that when it was written , in Deut 29:4 and in Isa 29:10 it is a FACT !!

The verb HATH GIVEN / DIDOMI is in the AORIST TENSE and is what we call the Past Tense , today

and this POINTS back to when Moses came down from Mt Sinai the second time and this where

2 Cor 3:13-16 comes in !!

Since Israel has been set aside , this means that Water Baptism , and Prophecies , Tongues ,

and Gifts of Knowledge are ABOLISHED as they are for INFANTS as verse 11 says !!

There are 2 verbs here in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and that says that means CONTINUOUS ACTION

as too Israel being under the spirit of STUPOR and the ONE'S following the 12 apostles are also under the same STUPOR !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi to all and there are many who say that Israel was NEVER set aside ??

In Rom 11:8 we read , Just as it has been written , God gave them a spirit of STUPOR , EYES to see not , and EARS to HEAR not and , UNTIL THIS DAY it is TRUE !!

If you see the phrase IT IS WRITTEN is also always in the Greek PERFECT TENSE and that means

that when it was written , in Deut 29:4 and in Isa 29:10 it is a FACT !!

The verb HATH GIVEN / DIDOMI is in the AORIST TENSE and is what we call the Past Tense , today

and this POINTS back to when Moses came down from Mt Sinai the second time and this where

2 Cor 3:13-16 comes in !!

Since Israel has been set aside , this means that Water Baptism , and Prophecies , Tongues ,

and Gifts of Knowledge are ABOLISHED as they are for INFANTS as verse 11 says !!

There are 2 verbs here in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and that says that means CONTINUOUS ACTION

as too Israel being under the spirit of STUPOR and the ONE'S following the 12 apostles are also under the same STUPOR !!

dan p

Israel was set aside earlier - at Acts 7.

Was Paul separated from his mother's womb (Jerusalem: concluded in bondage with her children) when he was saved by the Lord?

Yes.

Was the issue still "beginning at Jerusalem"?

Nope.

He was "far hence" from Jerusalem.

Did he immediately go up to the very center of the gospel of the circumcision (Jerusalem) when he was first saved, and or before he set out among both LOST Jew and Gentile?

Nope.

Was Paul persecuted the first time he preached unto them?

Yes.

The wrath of God having come upon Israel to the uttermost at the end of Acts 7 - set wrath had been set to soon fall - but for Paul's "this mystery."

Israel was set aside as UNCIRCUMCISION or HEATHEN at Acts 7.

Compare the end of Acts 7 with the end of Romans 2.

Paul was going to Jews and Gentiles as individuals, not to The Nation Israel as a nation under God.

For they they no longer were that nation under Him.

And he was going to both Jews and Gentiles with...

The gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION.

For both were now UNCIRCUMCISION.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Interplanner]

DanP,
before you go any further are you talking about the believers or the race? The race never was 'in'. Thats the retroactive view of the NT.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Israel was set aside earlier - at Acts 7.

Acts 7-8 happened at the end of the seven "weeks" prophecy from Daniel 9.
Acts 9-10 happened right after the end of the seven "weeks" prophecy from Daniel 9.

The children of Israel were tasked to do these six things during the seven "weeks" or face an exile much worse than the Babylonian exile:

1. finish the transgression
2. make an end of sins
3. make reconciliation for iniquity
4. bring in everlasting righteousness
5. seal up the vision and prophecy
6. anoint the most Holy

Because of the failure of the children of Israel to do those six tasks during the seven "weeks", God brought the Romans against them to begin the great tribulation, the Diaspora.

At the end of the great tribulation, the children of Israel are brought back to the land of promise.

Leviticus 26:44-45 44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.​

Jeremiah 29:14 14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.​

 

[marhig]

Matthew 23

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord

 

[DAN P]

Israel was set aside earlier - at Acts 7.

Was Paul separated from his mother's womb (Jerusalem: concluded in bondage with her children) when he was saved by the Lord?

Yes.

Was the issue still "beginning at Jerusalem"?

Nope.

He was "far hence" from Jerusalem.

Did he immediately go up to the very center of the gospel of the circumcision (Jerusalem) when he was first saved, and or before he set out among both LOST Jew and Gentile?

Nope.

Was Paul persecuted the first time he preached unto them?

Yes.

The wrath of God having come upon Israel to the uttermost at the end of Acts 7 - set wrath had been set to soon fall - but for Paul's "this mystery."

Israel was set aside as UNCIRCUMCISION or HEATHEN at Acts 7.

Compare the end of Acts 7 with the end of Romans 2.

Paul was going to Jews and Gentiles as individuals, not to The Nation Israel as a nation under God.

For they they no longer were that nation under Him.

And he was going to both Jews and Gentiles with...

The gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION.

For both were now UNCIRCUMCISION.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

Hi , danoh , and there were at least 7 more signs for Israel !!

#1 Duet 29:4

#2 Isa 6

#3 ,Isa 29:10

#4 , Lukr 13:6-9

#5, Acts 7

#6, Acts 13:46

#7, Acts 18:6

#8 Acts 28:28

Then comes 70 AD

I am sure there could be more !!

And yet many say the Israel was NOT SET ASIDE and there answer is NUGATORY to me !!

dan p

 

[genuineoriginal]

Matthew 23

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord

Yes, Jesus was talking about the coming of the great tribulation, the exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise known as the Diaspora, when Jerusalem would become desolate again as it had during the Babylonian captivity.

 

[Interplanner]

Acts 7-8 happened at the end of the seven "weeks" prophecy from Daniel 9.
Acts 9-10 happened right after the end of the seven "weeks" prophecy from Daniel 9.

The children of Israel were tasked to do these six things during the seven "weeks" or face an exile much worse than the Babylonian exile:

1. finish the transgression
2. make an end of sins
3. make reconciliation for iniquity
4. bring in everlasting righteousness
5. seal up the vision and prophecy
6. anoint the most Holy

Because of the failure of the children of Israel to do those six tasks during the seven "weeks", God brought the Romans against them to begin the great tribulation, the Diaspora.

At the end of the great tribulation, the children of Israel are brought back to the land of promise.

Leviticus 26:44-45 44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.​

Jeremiah 29:14 14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.​

Sorry, GO, that list of things is what Messiah accomplished. Some of the expressions are mentioned in Hebrews. There is no subsequent phase of Israel as a race/state.

 

[Interplanner]

Yes, Jesus was talking about the coming of the great tribulation, the exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise known as the Diaspora, when Jerusalem would become desolate again as it had during the Babylonian captivity.

He was talking about the events that happened in that generation after him, if Lk 23:42 means anything: when those babies were adults it would have taken place. That was the time of unbelievable turmoil.

His followers did sing 'blessed is he who...' and saw the kingdom he was speaking of.

 

[marhig]

Yes, Jesus was talking about the coming of the great tribulation, the exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise known as the Diaspora, when Jerusalem would become desolate again as it had during the Babylonian captivity.

I believe that Jesus is talking about them personally, each one who rejected him would remain desolate and his house empty (meaning their body and heart would be void) until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. In other words, the Jews who didn't believe in him, those who's heart was murderous like their fathers who killed and stoned the prophets and went on to murder Jesus, won't be accepted until they accept and believe in Christ Jesus when they hear the word through one of those who belong to him who are baring witness to the truth through Christ, and acknowledge that they are speaking the truth and then once they believe, they are to repent and be converted and follow Jesus Christ.


And it's the same still today, the Jews who reject Jesus will be left desolate until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And the kingdom is handed over to those who do believe in him and truly follow him.

 

[Interplanner]

I believe that Jesus is talking about them personally, each one who rejected him would remain desolate and his house empty (meaning their body and heart would be void) until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. In other words, the Jews who didn't believe in him, those who's heart was murderous like their fathers who killed and stoned the prophets and went on to murder Jesus, won't be accepted until they accept and believe in Christ Jesus when they hear the word through one of those who belong to him who are baring witness to the truth through Christ, and acknowledge that they are speaking the truth and then once they believe, they are to repent and be converted and follow Jesus Christ.


And it's the same still today, the Jews who reject Jesus will be left desolate until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And the kingdom is handed over to those who do believe in him and truly follow him.

"Their house" was a known expression for that temple.

Christ contrasted it with himself, calling himself a temple, in Jn 2:18+

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Israel was set aside earlier - at Acts 7.

Pin a rose on his nose!

The boy finally got something right!

 

[genuineoriginal]

Sorry, GO, that list of things is what Messiah accomplished. Some of the expressions are mentioned in Hebrews.

Those were not tasks for the messiah, they were tasks given to Daniel's people (the children of Israel) and Daniel's Holy city (Jerusalem), and they were given seventy "weeks" to accomplish them.
The only reason to claim otherwise is if you are trying to prove that the seventy "weeks" have not ended yet because the tasks were not completed.

There is no subsequent phase of Israel as a race/state.

The Bible states that there is.

 

[genuineoriginal]

He was talking about the events that happened in that generation after him

History shows that the people that believed Jesus' prophecy fled Jerusalem in 66 CE and went to Pella.

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."
— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

For after all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel that it is situated in the neighbourhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there."
— Epiphanius, Panarion 30, 2, 7

So Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."
— Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15​

 

[genuineoriginal]

I believe that Jesus is talking about them personally, each one who rejected him would remain desolate and his house empty (meaning their body and heart would be void) until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. In other words, the Jews who didn't believe in him, those who's heart was murderous like their fathers who killed and stoned the prophets and went on to murder Jesus, won't be accepted until they accept and believe in Christ Jesus when they hear the word through one of those who belong to him who are baring witness to the truth through Christ, and acknowledge that they are speaking the truth and then once they believe, they are to repent and be converted and follow Jesus Christ.


And it's the same still today, the Jews who reject Jesus will be left desolate until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And the kingdom is handed over to those who do believe in him and truly follow him.

Jesus spoke specifically about the desolation of Jerusalem that would begin the current exile of the children of Israel from the land of Israel.

Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.​

This was similar to prior prophecies about the desolation of Jerusalem that began the Babylonian exile.

Jeremiah 44:6 6 Wherefore my fury and mine anger was poured forth, and was kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are wasted and desolate, as at this day.​

 

[JonahofAkron]

If Israel was set aside, why would a new apostle (Paul) be raised to go to them?

 

[DAN P]

If Israel was set aside, why would a new apostle (Paul) be raised to go to them?

Hi and are you thinking of Acts 9:15 ??

So , 2 Cor 3:13-15 and Luke 13:6-9 and Isa 6:9-11 can answer that concern !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

If Israel was set aside, why would a new apostle (Paul) be raised to go to them?

They were set aside as to their status AS A NATION UNDER...GOD.

His Covenants with them are with them AS A NATION - the ONLY true one nation under God in all recorded history, Deut. 4 .

Read Daniel's prayer, in Daniel 9 - Daniel himself is under Israel's punishment under the Law, with his nation.

In contrast, beginning with Paul himself, God temporarily set their one nation under God status aside and was / is even now still dealing with them as individuals.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

When was Paul saved, before or after the following?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

He was saved BEFORE that fullness be come in.

He was not saved after the following, rather BEFORE its own due time. He was "one born OUT of", or BEFORE the following due time....

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Til then...

11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

You see that - at the same time, He is not through with His plan and purpose for them AS A NATION one day.

It is true, that...

11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Why is He not through with them as a nation? Why will He one day deal with them on that basis once more?

11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Its just that DURING "this mystery..."

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Notice in the following too, how Paul - an Israelite - again includes himself in this Israelites as individual sinners with the Gentiles...

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This is a constant theme in his writings - this distinction between Israel, once a nation under God with Moses himself (read the above references to that), prior to Paul, and individual Israelites as sinners like Paul himself, DURING "this mystery" beginning with Paul.

Believe me, even many on here who assert they understand Romans and Ephesians on this issue, continually prove theirs is a hybrid of things that do not go together in the way they erroneously assert they do.

Acts 17: 11, 12

 

[marhig]

"Their house" was a known expression for that temple.

Christ contrasted it with himself, calling himself a temple, in Jn 2:18+

Jesus spoke specifically about the desolation of Jerusalem that would begin the current exile of the children of Israel from the land of Israel.

Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.​

This was similar to prior prophecies about the desolation of Jerusalem that began the Babylonian exile.

Jeremiah 44:6 6 Wherefore my fury and mine anger was poured forth, and was kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are wasted and desolate, as at this day.​

There is a natural and a spiritual

This is what I mean by their house meaning their body and heart.

2 Corinthians 5

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

They are in their earthly house and any earthly house that rejects Jesus remains desolate until they accept him.

 

[genuineoriginal]

They are in their earthly house and any earthly house that rejects Jesus remains desolate until they accept him.

That is ignoring the actual desolation of Jerusalem that happened in accordance with the prophecy Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse.