1. How do you know that the vaccine caused it?
2. How many thousands died of COVID?
Vaccination progress
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2. How many thousands died of COVID?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
So- if you trust the CBC on one, why not the other?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Same to you
I prefer to trust the official health department over an indirect media report.
expos4ever
Well-known member
Broad lockdowns do work as a measure of last resort, says Ana Bento, an assistant professor at the School of Public Health at Indiana University Bloomington.
Another study found that, in many places, shelter-in-place orders and closing restaurants, bars and entertainment venues did substantially slow the spread of the virus.
New cases of COVID-19 dropping in Canada as experts say lockdowns are working
Now then: no one is saying that lockdowns are not hurtful. But the expert consensus is clear: they do work in curbing transmission.
As if one needed to be an expert to conclude the flippin' obvious.
expos4ever
Well-known member
These "debates" (I shudder to use such a term for the tripe we see here) are a veritable clinic in the various sins of both omission and commission we sadly see all too often.
Here is one such transgression we see all the time: focusing on one dimension of an issue and ignoring other relevant dimensions. Thus we are told about vaccine injuries. Fair enough, there are risks with the vaccine. But, need I state the obvious: a responsible debater would trade that off against the benefits conferred by the vaccine.
Lucky for us the numbers are in. There were about 470k excess deaths in 2020 according to the CDC. And also according to the CDC about 340k of those excess deaths were caused by COVID.
That means about 130k excess deaths were caused by the reaction to COVID.
Would those 130K excess people have died (also note: the majority of those 130k people were young) if we had treated the pandemic as a bad flu year? Absolutely not.
When I say I care more about people that you do, it isn't just a debate tactic. It's a real, objectively measurable action demonstrated in this very post.
And here is some speculation for you: the vaccine will be shown to have done a FANTASTIC job because... the pandemic was over a long time ago.
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ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
At what point do those risks become significant enough to outweigh the potential benefits?
What can you tell us about the long term risks of these vaccines that have been rushed through the development and testing process in a manner unprecedented?
Does it? Seems like a serious jump to a conclusion.
How much does the death rate vary per year in general?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Wait a tick
You want to bury the increase in deaths in noise, but continue pretending that the similarly sized deaths due to Kung Flu is significant?
Perhaps you are a professional statistician after all
I did not bring up "excess deaths" as a way of measuring anything. That was Yorzhik.Wait a tick
You want to bury the increase in deaths in noise, but continue pretending that the similarly sized deaths due to Kung Flu is significant?
Perhaps you are a professional statistician after all
I am simply looking at deaths attributed to Covid.
It's a reasonable jump. The CDC agrees.
Or perhaps you have another event in 2020 that could cause such a radical change? Remember, COVID deaths are already removed from the possibilities, and they are probably over-counted anyway.
The CDC uses a 5 year rolling average, factoring in population growth. Deaths above this average are counted as excess deaths. These excess deaths are broken down further into other groups. For instance, suicide and overdose have been on the rise for a while, but it spiked in 2020 starting roughly in April. Also in April the death spike wasn't old people dying, as you'd expect since they were the ones dying of COVID at rates of 80% or more; but a small hump in excess deaths was old people, while the bigger hump was young people.
But wait, there's more. While the pandemic will quickly revert to normal flu season like death rates even without a vaccine, a bad economy will keep killing people year after year until there is a recovery. I can see why internally you'd rather seek validation than the truth that is staring you in the face.
And one more thing, I have to point out again that, objectively, I care more about people than you do because I not only care about people in my own country but people around the world. The US, via charity (the US is the most charitable country on earth by a very wide margin) helps to keep people alive in other countries. The UN says there will be 2 million excess deaths in poor countries from bad economies created in 2020, and we won't be as able to help them.
But even if you still can't believe the obvious, take a look at the charts CNN forgot. Mask and social distancing mandates and lockdowns didn't even change the outcome of the spread of the virus for the most part anyway. So we could have saved at least 140000 lives. Although, that's such a big number I'm sure for you it isn't a tragedy, it's just a statistic.
You claim COVID is so bad it justifies mask mandates, lockdowns, and social distancing. If there are no excess deaths would you continue to claim that?
That's like saying you simply look at the gender pay gap attributed to the patriarchy. When every serious economist can explain the gap by hours worked and time on the job, you'll just keep looking at the gap attributed to the patriarchy. That's why you come off as a belligerent NPC. Why not give curiosity a try?
Excess deaths are the bottom line for your claims of how bad COVID was. Don't be an NPC, be curious.
You have a curious idea of logic:
1. Attributing the non-COVID excess deaths to the COVID lockdowns isn't justified. One could just as easily say that they are due to undiagnosed COVID cases
2. Looking at the deaths in the with all the hated precautions that were taken, and then saying "see, the lockdowns were pointless and harmful" is not logical either. The question is- how bad would it have been without those lockdowns? To answer that (within limits, I admit), one has to look at other countries.
3. The idea that you personally care more about people all over the world than I do ("Objectively", no less!) because your country gives more to foreign aid is so absurd that I wonder if you are worth arguing with. You can do better than that.
Newsflash: the Covid was over months ago. Or, it should have been, but was prolonged due to lockdowns.
Don't confuse correlation with causation.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Hmm.
Ha!
Prolonged because of lockdowns? What is the mechanism? Or shall I guess? We would have had herd immunity by now! Sure, maybe at a cost in human lives- but who cares!
It is somewhat amusing how some are quite certain that the vaccines cause blood clots, because, after all, the blood clots have been correlated with getting the vaccine (though statistically speaking, even this isn't true). But, if I point out that Israel and the UK are basically post COVID, due to the vaccine- whoa! Correlation doesn't prove causation!