Utah guv: Give anesthesia to babies during abortions

[musterion]

I doubt unborn children, to that degree, even feel 'conscious' pain, but rather 'blind sight' pain.

Technically speaking it's only theory, but it's a very sensible one- a proposed phenomena in which a brain not fully advanced and self-aware does not experience pain in the same severeness as one who is advanced and self-aware.

May God forgive you.

 

[Crucible]

May God forgive you.

Forgive me for what :idunno:
Realizing the difference between what the Bible implies and what people presume?

Calling abortion 'murder' is more like a cult following than anything. Being against abortion is more about being against the underlying causes in which a person decides on an abortion- you all have made it entirely about the fetus.

 

[The Horn]

It's an established medical and scientific fact that a fetus in the early stages of development cannot feel pain . It does not even have a brain yet, like Republican politicians, who are born without them .
Its nervous system has not developed to the point where it can feel
pain . Late term abortions where a fetus can now feel pain are extremely rare , and women do not just capriciously decide to have abortions at this point in a pregnancy . If a doctor is performing an abortion at this point, you can be sure this is a grave medical emergency where her life is threatened .

 

[Rusha]

IF there were no chance of AOD becoming illegal, then obviously it would be best to go with this first option.

I don't see wishing to be humane to unborn babies as approval of abortion, but rather as compassion for the unborn child.

The only reason a pro-abortion person would be against easing the suffering of an unborn baby is because the result would be giving more humanity to the unborn. Mothers would be required to consider that what they are doing is inhumane and cruel.

 

[musterion]

It's an established medical and scientific fact that a fetus in the early stages of development cannot feel pain . It does not even have a brain yet, like Republican politicians, who are born without them .
Its nervous system has not developed to the point where it can feel
pain . Late term abortions where a fetus can now feel pain are extremely rare , and women do not just capriciously decide to have abortions at this point in a pregnancy . If a doctor is performing an abortion at this point, you can be sure this is a grave medical emergency where her life is threatened .

What's the acceptable number of abortions where the victim is agonizingly ripped apart? What's the threshold? What's the cutoff? One? A million? You said it, so you call it.

 

[Tambora]

I voted for #1.
Since the abortion is going to take place, I voted for #1 because it is the most merciful of the options listed.

 

[PureX]

Right, because all of us ant-abortionists are unintelligent.

If you say so, and you just did.

So I guess the only thing to do is enlighten us right?

Lets start with enlightening us on an easy question.

PureX, Is the unborn fetus of a human mother a human, yes or no?

… A Human what? It's a human fetus; you just said so.

You can't even put together a coherent question. How "intelligent" is that?

 

[ok doser]

… A Human what?

what are your choices?

a human car?

a human sofa?

what, in your retarded little mind, caused you any confusion when dial asked you whether it was a human?

 

[musterion]

what are your choices?

a human car?

a human sofa?

what, in your retarded little mind, caused you any confusion when dial aksed you whether it was a human?

Was probably the tacks.

 

[musterion]

Right, because all of us ant-abortionists are unintelligent.

So I guess the only thing to do is enlighten us right?

Lets start with enlightening us on an easy question.

PureX, Is the unborn fetus of a human mother a human, yes or no?

Since you are so intelligent, this one should be easy for you.

He knows what you mean and so will never, ever answer it directly and honestly. Same reason he won't vote; all the bases are adequately covered. He knows it. I just asked for an alternate because I knew he can't provide one.

 

[Dialogos]

If you say so, and you just did.

Most individuals who have graduated from junior high can pretty well recognize sarcasm when they see it.

… A Human what? It's a human fetus; you just said so.

A Human....

Good.

So is it or is it not inhumane and immoral to kill a powerless human in a most painful way?

You can't even put together a coherent question.

It was coherent enough for others to understand and for you to give an an answer. If you weren't blinded you could probably deduce for yourself how your own answer gives you reason enough to appose the brutal killing of an innocent and helpless human.

How "intelligent" is that?

Who cares?

A) I'm certain nobody cares how intelligent I think I am, so I'm not going to waste keystrokes defending my intellect.

B) I'm even more certain nobody cares how intelligent you think I am.

C) I don't care how intelligent you think you are either.

There are plenty of reasonably intelligent people who are immoral and wicked because they love darkness rather than light.

You are one of them, and nobody will care how smart you think you are in hell.

 

[WizardofOz]

It's a loaded poll.

I'm not too big a fan of this subject anyway, because abortion being 'murder' is an evolved, arbitrary claim in which the Bible ultimately doesn't agree with you on. The Old Law was more concerned with harm to the mother than the fetus. Other than that, there is no more mention of it.

I don't see how people not understand what 'unborn' is. The unborn have more in common with a mere conception of potential existence than that of being born and autonomous. To say otherwise doesn't add to the life of a fetus, but subtract from the life of those born.

Nonetheless, I'm against abortion. The difference is that it's out of real reasons, not made up, reactionary ones

So you're pro-choice if the reason is 'real' and not reactionary?

 

[PureX]

So is it or is it not inhumane and immoral to kill a powerless human in a most painful way?

A powerless human what? See, you're trying to use vagueness and imprecision to avoid the actual issue behind the disagreement over abortion.

You've already stated that it's a human fetus. And the answer to your question is that we don't know if it's "inhumane" or not to abort a human fetus, and at what stage in it's development. Or if it is "inhumane", that it matters, significantly. As it's equally "inhumane" to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.

The problem here is that you don't recognize the difference between a human fetus; essentially, a parasite living inside an autonomous human being's body, and an autonomous human being, fully formed. But other people do recognize this difference, and so they ethically consider each of these phenomena, differently, as a result. You may not agree with them, but until you can better articulate your disagreement, and not try to hide it behind your own vague feelings and assertions, they have no obligation to pay your feelings and assertions much mind.

I'm certain nobody cares how intelligent I think I am, so I'm not going to waste keystrokes defending my intellect.

Nor will anyone appreciate what isn't there for them to experience. That's the thing about "not caring about what others think". It's an invitation for them not to care about what you think, in return.

I'm even more certain nobody cares how intelligent you think I am.

I was doing you the curtesy of explaining why your opinions are so easily dismissible. If you don't care about these shortcomings, then I don't care, either.

I don't care how intelligent you think you are either.

Or perhaps you dislike expressions of intelligence because they make you feel stupid, in relation. And you'd rather disparage the intelligence of others to make yourself feel better, than to learn from it. Which is, in fact, a stupid thing to do.

There are plenty of reasonably intelligent people who are immoral and wicked because they love darkness rather than light.

Yes, and you think of them every time you're confronted with an intelligent person. Because thinking of them disparages intelligence and makes you feel better about your own stupidity.

You are one of them, and nobody will care how smart you think you are in hell.

Intelligent people appreciate intelligence, and want to learn from it when they encounter it in others. Stupid people try to deny their own stupidity by disparaging the intelligence of others, when they encounter it, because it makes them aware of their own stupidity, and they don't like that.

Intelligence requires the courage to accept and admit to one's own intellectual shortcomings, and so learn from others. A lot of people lack that courage, and so remain imprisoned by their own ignorance.

 

[musterion]

A powerless human what? See, you're trying to use vagueness and imprecision to avoid the actual issue behind the disagreement over abortion.

You've already stated that it's a human fetus. And the answer to your question is that we don't know if it's "inhumane" or not to abort a human fetus, and at what stage in it's development. Or if it is "inhumane", that it matters, significantly. As it's equally "inhumane" to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.

The problem here is that you don't recognize the difference between a human fetus; essentially, a parasite living inside an autonomous human being's body, and an autonomous human being, fully formed. But other people do recognize this difference, and so they ethically consider each of these phenomena, differently, as a result. You may not agree with them, but until you can better articulate your disagreement, and not try to hide it behind your own vague feelings and assertions, they have no obligation to pay your feelings and assertions much mind.
Nor will anyone appreciate what isn't there for them to experience. That's the thing about "not caring about what others think". It's an invitation for them not to care about what you think, in return.
I was doing you the curtesy of explaining why your opinions are so easily dismissible. If you don't care about these shortcomings, then I don't care, either.
Or perhaps you dislike expressions of intelligence because they make you feel stupid, in relation. And you'd rather disparage the intelligence of others to make yourself feel better, than to learn from it. Which is, in fact, a stupid thing to do.
Yes, and you think of them every time you're confronted with an intelligent person. Because thinking of them disparages intelligence and makes you feel better about your own stupidity.
Intelligent people appreciate intelligence, and want to learn from it when they encounter it in others. Stupid people try to deny their own stupidity by disparaging the intelligence of others, when they encounter it, because it makes them aware of their own stupidity, and they don't like that.

Intelligence requires the courage to accept and admit to one's own intellectual shortcomings, and so learn from others. A lot of people lack that courage, and so remain imprisoned by their own ignorance.

Let's get to the core of all this.

At what point does an unborn baby become a person?

 

[Jonahdog]

A lifeless, mindless zygote can't feel or think. Who cares, right?

Nicky, are you suggesting that a zygote can feel or think? are you aware of the definition of "zygote" or is this just one of your manly knee-jerk reactions?

 

[ok doser]

A powerless human what?

honestly, are you trying to prove you're retarded?

most people here are already convinced, so you can stop now

hu·man ˈ(h)yo͞omən/ adjective adjective: human 1. of, relating to, or characteristic of people or human beings. "the human body" synonyms: anthropomorphic, anthropoid, humanoid, hominid "in human form" of or characteristic of people as opposed to God or animals or machines, especially in being susceptible to weaknesses. "they are only human, and therefore mistakes do occur" synonyms: mortal, flesh and blood; More fallible, weak, frail, imperfect, vulnerable, susceptible, erring, error-prone; physical, bodily, fleshly "they're only human" of or characteristic of people's better qualities, such as kindness or sensitivity. "the human side of politics is getting stronger" synonyms: compassionate, humane, kind, considerate, understanding, sympathetic, tolerant; More approachable, accessible "the human side of politics" Zoology of or belonging to the genus Homo. noun noun: human; plural noun: humans 1. a human being, especially a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien. synonyms: person, human being, personage, mortal, member of the human race; More man, woman; individual, soul, living soul, being; Homo sapiens; earthling "the link between humans and animals" Origin

purex, once again demonstrating his desperate need for a mirror:

Stupid people try to deny their own stupidity by disparaging the intelligence of others, when they encounter it

that is exactly what you were just doing with dialogos, by disparaging his intelligence by pretending not to understand what he was saying?

 

[PureX]

Let's get to the core of all this.

At what point does an unborn baby become a person?

We don't know. "Personhood" is a subjective concept. We each have our own ideas on what it is and what it means. Also, why should the 'personhood' of a fetus take precedent over the autonomous personhood of the woman upon whom it depends as it's host? Again, we have differing ideas and opinions on this, and no clear solution. And again you ignore all these aspects (which are at the core of the issues fueling the abortion debate) and continue to post your absurdly vague and over-simplistic questions as if they're supposed to illuminate something, when all they illuminate is your own ignorance on the subject.

 

[musterion]

We don't know.

If you dont know when it IS a person, then you don't know when it ISN'T.

 

[ok doser]

Also, why should the 'personhood' of a fetus take precedent over the autonomous personhood of the woman upon whom it depends as it's host?

because most people (who aren't total retards (or feminists, which is the same thing)) recognize that a 40 week fetus has the same "personhood" (whatever that means) as a newborn

and again, most people who aren't retards recognize that there must be some seminal (yes, pun intended ) event, going back from newborn/40 week term at which a single distinct individual comes into being

and most people (again, who aren't total tards) recognize that there is indeed a point at which a single, unique individual comes into being

 

[ok doser]

If you dont know when it IS a person, then you don't know when it ISN'T.

remember, purex embraces indecision and uncertainty as if it's a virtue