Union with Christ before believing in Him !
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
beloved57
Well-known member
Has nothing to do with points made in post and thread !
beloved57
Well-known member
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 2
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 2
You see, when God promised to give Abraham and Seed the inheritance Gal 3:18, its just as good as done, thats why its in the past tense
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
In the greek, the word gave is in the perfect tense, so the promising to give the Inheritance and giving it are the same to God, for His Counsel is Immutable Heb 6:13-18
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise[Abraham and his Seed] the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
That Hope is the Hope of Eternal Inheritance or Eternal Life
Its the Eternal Inheritance which is that Eternal Life Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Thats also the Everlasting Canaan Gen 17:8
8 And I will give[God promising] unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
So the Inheritance belongs to Abraham and his seed [in all generations] by virtue of Gods Promise, so Eternal life belonged to the believer by virtue of Gods promise before the world began ! And corresponding with Pauls Titus 1:1-2 Eternal Life Promised, is John again in his Epistle 1 Jn 2:25
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
And this Promise was given them in the Son, their Union with Him before the World began 1 Jn 5:11
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 2
You see, when God promised to give Abraham and Seed the inheritance Gal 3:18, its just as good as done, thats why its in the past tense
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
In the greek, the word gave is in the perfect tense, so the promising to give the Inheritance and giving it are the same to God, for His Counsel is Immutable Heb 6:13-18
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise[Abraham and his Seed] the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
That Hope is the Hope of Eternal Inheritance or Eternal Life
Its the Eternal Inheritance which is that Eternal Life Heb 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Thats also the Everlasting Canaan Gen 17:8
8 And I will give[God promising] unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
So the Inheritance belongs to Abraham and his seed [in all generations] by virtue of Gods Promise, so Eternal life belonged to the believer by virtue of Gods promise before the world began ! And corresponding with Pauls Titus 1:1-2 Eternal Life Promised, is John again in his Epistle 1 Jn 2:25
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
And this Promise was given them in the Son, their Union with Him before the World began 1 Jn 5:11
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Shasta
Well-known member
They wanted to know how they could do the (miraculous) works of God. Instead of saying what they could do Jesus told them the issue was about allowing the work of God to be done in them. This work was faith. Faith means to "trust in, rely upon, belief in" Him. You cannot get faith by trying to make yourself believe as a mental effort.
Faith is more than us trying to believe, it is about God "working in his to will (to give us the desire) and to do (to actually perform) of His good pleasure."
The prayer of faith that brings the kind of works they wanted to do had to be produced in them by God though they also had to listen and then to lay hold of the answer when it was revealed to them (even before it happened).
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. This means not only what the Bible says about saving truth but also the specific answers to prayer that God speaks to us. We are always to pray but in my experience I have faith for miraculous answers only when I hear from God.
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner (John 5:19)
When we see what God is doing or intends to do in a situation we can have faith and see prayer answered in reality. Remember, they were asking particularly how to do the miraculous works Jesus was doing. Jesus told them here that He did what he saw the Father doing.
It is incorrect to say that we can have faith apart from the Holy Spirit. He bears witness of the truth in us. Don't let the Calvinists view of irresistible grace drive you into Pelagianism. There is a ditch on both sides of the road. To every error there is an equal and opposite error and both sides of a point of view tend to become polarized in the process of debate.
beloved57
Well-known member
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 3
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 3
Now again, those who have by Promise Eternal Life given them by Promise, to them it is given to know they have it and to believe on the Son they had it in 1 Jn 5:11-13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
See, the Heirs of Promise have Eternal Life before they know about it ! Notice Vs 13 the scripture is written so that they may know [experimentally] that they have Eternal Life, and that they may believe on the name of the Son of God; Now if you notice believing follows knowing, the believe not to get eternal life, but because they already had it by Promise as the Seed of Abraham; and so its written here Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Because they had it Promised them [Before the World began Titus 1:1-2], that made them ordained to it !
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 3
Now again, those who have by Promise Eternal Life given them by Promise, to them it is given to know they have it and to believe on the Son they had it in 1 Jn 5:11-13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
See, the Heirs of Promise have Eternal Life before they know about it ! Notice Vs 13 the scripture is written so that they may know [experimentally] that they have Eternal Life, and that they may believe on the name of the Son of God; Now if you notice believing follows knowing, the believe not to get eternal life, but because they already had it by Promise as the Seed of Abraham; and so its written here Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Because they had it Promised them [Before the World began Titus 1:1-2], that made them ordained to it !
John 3:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
God's Truth
New member
Don’t add to the scripture.
I have already shown you with scripture that THEY WERE ASKING FOR WHAT THEY ARE TO DO AND JESUS TOLD THEM.
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
What?
God listens to those who obey. God does not listen to unrepentant sinners.
What in the world are you talking about?
You are like a Calvinist if you keep saying things such as that.
We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!
beloved57
Well-known member
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 4
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 4
This ordaining to Eternal Life as Per Acts 13:48 has to do with is prearrangement in the Eternal Counsels of God, also it having been Promised to them from before the foundation Titus 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
The word promise is compatible with the word ordained in Acts 13:48 which denotes an arrangement , mutual agreement.
For what is an promise but a pledge of some sort,
a formal or solemn promise or agreement,
the act of agreeing or of coming to a mutual arrangement.
an arrangement that is accepted by all parties to a transaction.
All of which that Points to the Everlasting Covenent before the world began, or Gods Eternal Counsel or Purpose Eph 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
It was in the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus when Christ was made a Surety for His People, the People of the Covenant, chosen in Him Heb 7:22
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. See also Heb 13:20
Isa 42:6
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
And they from this receive eternal life experimentally, which had been promised them in Christ before the world began, and to them it was appointed, ordained they should believe on the Son 1 Jn 5:13
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 4
This ordaining to Eternal Life as Per Acts 13:48 has to do with is prearrangement in the Eternal Counsels of God, also it having been Promised to them from before the foundation Titus 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
The word promise is compatible with the word ordained in Acts 13:48 which denotes an arrangement , mutual agreement.
For what is an promise but a pledge of some sort,
a formal or solemn promise or agreement,
the act of agreeing or of coming to a mutual arrangement.
an arrangement that is accepted by all parties to a transaction.
All of which that Points to the Everlasting Covenent before the world began, or Gods Eternal Counsel or Purpose Eph 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
It was in the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus when Christ was made a Surety for His People, the People of the Covenant, chosen in Him Heb 7:22
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. See also Heb 13:20
Isa 42:6
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
And they from this receive eternal life experimentally, which had been promised them in Christ before the world began, and to them it was appointed, ordained they should believe on the Son 1 Jn 5:13
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Nanja
Well-known member
Excellent 3-part study!
These who were In Union with Christ, Abraham's Seed, before the world began
are the same who shall become Born Again, come to know of their Heirship,
and be given to Believe, which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.
These Chosen Heirs of Promise, are sealed with the Spirit of Promise Eph. 1:13
which ensures their perseverance to the end Eph. 4:30. And because they are Sons of God,
He sends the Spirit of His Son into their hearts.
Gal. 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal. 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
~~~~~
Okay, onto part 4 ☺
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen!
Shasta
Well-known member
I do not see anyone in Paul's time claiming that their faith in God was a "work of righteousness" that EARNED them salvation. The kinds of "works" Paul condemns are "meritorious" works (i.e., attempts to garner the favor of God through self-effort) Jesus pointed some of these practices out when he observed how the Pharisees would give to the poor, fast and say long prayers. Having been a Pharisee himself Paul was well acquainted with these attempts to curry favor with God. Given the context of his life experience, this is what Paul meant by "works."
Faith and THIS kind of "works" are contrasted in the NT
4 Now to the one whoworks, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work (i.e.,try to become righteous by his own efforts) but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:5)
The Bible never suggests that faith is a "good deed" or a "(meritorious) work of righteousness."
5 He saved us, NOT on the basis of a (good) deed which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Doing meritorious works means you are not trusting God but that you are trusting in yourSELF. Faith is the opposite of "doing a righteous work" to earn salvation. It is letting go of all attempts at being better and surrendering your life to the only one who can save you from yourself.
Exercising faith does not in any way earn salvation but it IS a necessary condition for receiving it. It is true we would never come to Him unless the Spirit convicts us of sin and draws us it is equally true that we still have the choice of submitting to His call and believing in Him or of rejecting Him.
However, faith is voluntary. To believe is to submit to the call of the Holy Spirit which is to believe in Him which makes Him our savior and Lord.
In the scriptures, faith and obedience are inseparable. Paul said the goal of his ministry was "to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,"
(Romans 1:5)
Jesus too equated faith with obedience when He said this:
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36)
Obedience, submitting ones life to the call of the Gospel, is not a legalistic work but neither is it involuntary.
Shasta
Well-known member
First of all where does the Bible say that a person putting their faith in Jesus is a work of the flesh? No one would ever do that unless the Spirit had influenced them. In what scripture do you anchor this concept.
Let us look at how God speaks to men about getting right with Him.
18“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
(Isaiah 1:18)
It looks like the Lord is inviting them to use their minds in order to make a rational decision that is in their best interest. As soon as He begins to speak of their sin he is addressing their moral conscience. Finally he says that an exercise of their will is necessary.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
20but if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be eaten by the sword;
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
(Isaiah 1:18)
Being "willing and obedient" is saying "yes" to the will of God. Saying "no" is represented by the words "refuse" and "rebel" Notice that God is assuming they have a will and can make either decision.
Reason together
Had God been a Calvinist He would have known the "carnal mind" is incapable of thinking anything but corrupt thoughts. Since this is obviously not borne out here I suggest that you have not precisely defined what the "carnal mind" is.
If you be willing and obedient
Evidently Isaiah was still under the pre-Calvinistic " thinking that man can make choices. Had he been able to study Reformed Theology at Geneva he would have understood that whether men submit to the Word or reject it is solely up to God who determines their choices by either exerting or withholding Divine grace
The whole tone of this passage is one of moral rational persuasion. God assumes that they can sit and reason together and that they can make a moral decisions. Viewing the passage as it stands without reading Calvinism into it (which would not be around for thousands of years) you get the idea that God thinks his people can think rationally and that they can be persuaded to choose to believe God and obey Him. Since the prophet was speaking by the Spirit we assume that the influence of God was there to help them repent and turn from their sins.
Calvinism holds that the reasoning together, the warnings, the promised rewards are not directly connected to any outcome. They are all just a "means" which God has arbitrarily chosen to work through. He might just as well have decreed that men be saved after a preacher had recited "twinkle twinkle little star."
Last edited:
beloved57
Well-known member
shasta
Where does it say its not ?
Its only common sense, If one isnt regenerated by the Spirit, and their Faith isnt the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, then its of the flesh ! The only way it isnt of the flesh is if its the Fruit of the Spirit, common sense guided by scripture principles dictates that ! Jn 3:6
Where does it say its not ?
Its only common sense, If one isnt regenerated by the Spirit, and their Faith isnt the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, then its of the flesh ! The only way it isnt of the flesh is if its the Fruit of the Spirit, common sense guided by scripture principles dictates that ! Jn 3:6
Nanja
Well-known member
beloved57
Well-known member
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 5
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 5
Earlier in this subject I posted that God gave Abraham and his seed an Inheritance by Promise Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Note: This Inheritance is not the physical land of israel, even though he gave them that also by promise, but this promise inheritance is not connected with the Law, its not of the Law of moses !
So now what is this Promised Inheritance given to Abraham and His Seed ? The Inheritance is Eternal Life ! Its the Eternal Life and Inheritance for the Sheep of God, Abraham and His Seed Spiritual. Thats why Jesus says this to the Sheep on His Right hand Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Its the same Kingdom Abraham is mentioned in here Matt 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Remember Abraham was looking for a Heavenly City Heb 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
In fact, the word prepared here in Heb 11:16 is the very same word in the greek as Matt 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Remember Heb 11:16 is also speaking of an Inheritance, we know this from the preceding verse Heb 11:8
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
And again its Heavenly Heb 11:16 !
Remember this passage Gen 17:5-8, and see where God Promised to give Abraham and his seed all the Land of Canaan for an Everlasting Possession, thats Eternal Life in the Heavenly Kingdom Matt 8:11 its that Everlasting habitations of Lk 16:9
9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 5
Earlier in this subject I posted that God gave Abraham and his seed an Inheritance by Promise Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Note: This Inheritance is not the physical land of israel, even though he gave them that also by promise, but this promise inheritance is not connected with the Law, its not of the Law of moses !
So now what is this Promised Inheritance given to Abraham and His Seed ? The Inheritance is Eternal Life ! Its the Eternal Life and Inheritance for the Sheep of God, Abraham and His Seed Spiritual. Thats why Jesus says this to the Sheep on His Right hand Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Its the same Kingdom Abraham is mentioned in here Matt 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Remember Abraham was looking for a Heavenly City Heb 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
In fact, the word prepared here in Heb 11:16 is the very same word in the greek as Matt 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Remember Heb 11:16 is also speaking of an Inheritance, we know this from the preceding verse Heb 11:8
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
And again its Heavenly Heb 11:16 !
Remember this passage Gen 17:5-8, and see where God Promised to give Abraham and his seed all the Land of Canaan for an Everlasting Possession, thats Eternal Life in the Heavenly Kingdom Matt 8:11 its that Everlasting habitations of Lk 16:9
9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Keep posting, Nanja will read it.
Nanja
Well-known member
Yep, I'll be getting to parts 4 and 5 tomorrow, the Lord willing 1 Thes. 4:16-17! :rapture:
~~~~~
It'll take you down to the pit.
And, you get the "extra added" neg-reps to go with them. How about that?