Understanding the Incarnation

[Dougcho]

Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding
of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.

You will see below … In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity
were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven
to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.
Christ (English) = Cristos (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew)

How did the Holy Spirit perform this miraculous “Immaculate Conception”?
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb

God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)
Jesus was called “the Son of God” because His “Father” was God the Holy Spirit!
And Luke quoted Isaiah as saying: Jesus would be “God with us” …

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus
… So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature?

Years ago, a British lady doctor told me (via email)
that every human inherits the DNA of BOTH parents.
So, unless the Holy Spirit over-rode this (which is a possibility),
the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb inherited her DNA.
Does this mean that Jesus was “fully man”?

“Therefore, it was necessary for Him to be made in every respect like us,
His brothers and sisters, so that He could be our merciful and faithful
High Priest before God.” (Hebrews 2:17)

So, Jesus was “fully man” … But, how then could He be “fully God”?

God the Word’s role in the “creation” of Jesus

“… the Word was God … And the Word became human (Jesus Christ)
and made His home among us.” (John 1:1, 1:14)
So, Jesus was “fully God” … But, wouldn’t this over-ride His sin nature?

Your comments on all of this would be most interesting!

And just thought I’d ask:
When did God the Word become a human being (Jesus Christ)
… while Jesus was in the womb, or after He was born?

 

[Derf]

Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding
of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.

You will see below … In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity
were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven
to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.
Christ (English) = Cristos (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew)

How did the Holy Spirit perform this miraculous “Immaculate Conception”?
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb

God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus

Except Jesus talked about the glory He had with the Father before the world was created. Obviously Jesus was more than the man, and at least that much (the more part) was not created by the Holy Spirit.

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)
Jesus was called “the Son of God” because His “Father” was God the Holy Spirit!
And Luke quoted Isaiah as saying: Jesus would be “God with us” …

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus
… So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature?

No.

Years ago, a British lady doctor told me (via email)
that every human inherits the DNA of BOTH parents.
So, unless the Holy Spirit over-rode this (which is a possibility),
the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb inherited her DNA.
Does this mean that Jesus was “fully man”?

“Therefore, it was necessary for Him to be made in every respect like us,
His brothers and sisters, so that He could be our merciful and faithful
High Priest before God.” (Hebrews 2:17)

So, Jesus was “fully man” … But, how then could He be “fully God”?

God the Word’s role in the “creation” of Jesus

“… the Word was God … And the Word became human (Jesus Christ)
and made His home among us.” (John 1:1, 1:14)
So, Jesus was “fully God” … But, wouldn’t this over-ride His sin nature?

He didn't have a sin nature. Usually this is attributed to the virgin birth.

Your comments on all of this would be most interesting!

What does "fully God" mean? He "grew" in wisdom, so He wasn't fully God in terms of wisdom.

And just thought I’d ask:
When did God the Word become a human being (Jesus Christ)
… while Jesus was in the womb, or after He was born?

At conception, whatever that looked like. Jesus was already human in Mary's womb--she was "with child", not "with alien life form".

 

[Dougcho]

Except Jesus talked about the glory He had with the Father before the world was created.
Obviously Jesus was more than the man, and at least that much (the more part) was not created by the Holy Spirit.

At conception, whatever that looked like. Jesus was already human in Mary's womb--she was "with child", not "with alien life form".

Don't confuse The Word (who was God) ... with ... Jesus (who was both God and Man).

BEFORE the Incarnation ...
Jesus wasn't in Heaven with the Father, and the Son of God wasn't in Heaven with the Father.

In the virgin Mary's womb, there was a human fetus ... due to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.
And also, at some point, the Word became Jesus ... either in the womb, or after He came out.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Don't confuse The Word (who was God) ... with ... Jesus (who was both God and Man).

BEFORE the Incarnation ...
Jesus wasn't in Heaven with the Father, and the Son of God wasn't in Heaven with the Father.

This is literal heresy.

Shame on you.

In the virgin Mary's womb, there was a human fetus due to the miracle of the Holy Spirit.
At some point, the Word became Jesus ... either in the womb, or after He came out.

Do you know what the word used in John 1:14 is that is translated as "dwelt"?

 

[Right Divider]

BEFORE the Incarnation ...
Jesus wasn't in Heaven with the Father, and the Son of God wasn't in Heaven with the Father.

John 17:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ​

You don't belong on a Christian website.

 

[Dougcho]

John 17:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ​

Jesus was referring to when He was the Word (John 1:1, John 1:14)

Please, forget the garbage you were taught in the churches,
and just believe the Holy Scriptures.

Do you have any idea of God's opinion of
(most of) today's churches in North America?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus was referring to when He was the Word (John 1:1, John 1:14)

Please, forget the garbage you were taught in the churches,
and just believe the Holy Scriptures.

Do you have any idea of God's opinion of
(most of) today's churches in North America?

Jesus is the LOGOS.

The LOGOS was given the name "Jesus" on the 8th day after his birth.

The LOGOS was the one conceived in Mary's womb.

You sound like someone who was banned a while back, who said that the child conceived in Mary's womb was not the LOGOS but some human, who then had their body taken over at some point after conception.

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus is the LOGOS.
The LOGOS was given the name "Jesus" on the 8th day after his birth.
The LOGOS was the one conceived in Mary's womb.

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus
… So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Nothing here about the Logos.
In the NKJV, He is called "the Holy One" and "Immanuel".
And He was TO BE CALLED, "Jesus' and "the Son of God" after He was born.
(I.E. He wasn't these before the Incarnation.)

The fetus was created/formed by the Holy Spirit.
And the Word (from Heaven) became the fetus (Jesus).
Apparently, the Word did NOT erase the sin nature
that Jesus inherited from Mary ... because ...
the word says that Jesus was like us in every aspect,
i.e. with a sin nature.
But, of course, because He was also God ...
He was able to overcome temptation and sin.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus
… So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Nothing here about the Logos.

There is in John 1.

"LOGOS" (the Greek word used) is translated "Word" in most Bibles.

In the NKJV, He is called "the Holy One" and "Immanuel".
And He was to be CALLED, "Jesus' and "the Son of God" after He was born.
(I.E. He wasn't these before the Incarnation.)

Right, he was not called those names before.

Yet we still say New York was founded in 1625, long before it was officially named "New York."

Jesus was conceived in Mary, despite not being given the name "Jesus" until after His birth.

See how that works?

 

[Dougcho]

Yes, of course, I hammer on about nomenclature.
And I don't like "how that works" in the churches.
There was no one called Jesus or the Son of God
or Immanuel, etc. in Heaven before the Incarnation.
How about ... only after he ascended?

The Lord promises that when we read (and study)
the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit will reveal some
pretty neat spiritual Truth to us.
Apparently, some are blessed with more than others.
It helps a lot of have the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Would you care to have a thread about this baptism?

 

[JudgeRightly]

There was no one called Jesus or the Son of God
or Immanuel, etc. in Heaven before the Incarnation.
How about ... only after he ascended?

There is nothing wrong with calling referring to the pre-Incarnation LOGOS by those names.

 

[Dougcho]

There is nothing wrong with calling referring to the pre-Incarnation LOGOS by those names.

I just like to point out the technical error in doing so.
Technically, realistically, etc. these names have no part
in referring to Jesus PRIOR to the Incarnation.

 

[Right Divider]

I just like to point out the technical error in doing so.

That's just plain wrong.

Technically, realistically, etc. these names have no part
in referring to Jesus PRIOR to the Incarnation.

False.

Jesus said this about Himself.

John 17:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ​

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus said this about Himself.
John 17:5 (AKJV/PCE)

(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ​

John 1 (NKJV) ...
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Other NT verses explain that Father God created everything through Jesus.

We know that the Word became flesh (Jesus).

For what it's worth ...
BEFORE the Incarnation ... the Word was a Member of the Triune Godhead.
AFTER the Incarnation ... Jesus was a Member of the Triune Godhead.

Semantics again, I guess.

 

[Right Divider]

John 1 (NKJV) ...
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Other NT verses explain that Father God created everything through Jesus.

So that means that Jesus has always existed.

We know that the Word became flesh (Jesus).

For what it's worth ...
BEFORE the Incarnation ... the Word was a Member of the Triune Godhead.
AFTER the Incarnation ... Jesus was a Member of the Triune Godhead.

Jesus is the Word.

Semantics again, I guess.

Jesus was always Jesus, even if He was given that name later.

Yes, you are being too pedantic (and at times, seemingly confused).

 

[Derf]

Don't confuse The Word (who was God) ... with ... Jesus (who was both God and Man).

The Word might not have been called "Jesus", and He wasn't both God and man in eternity past. I think your point that "Jesus" only applies to the one Who is both God and man is allowed by scripture.

BEFORE the Incarnation ...
Jesus wasn't in Heaven with the Father, and the Son of God wasn't in Heaven with the Father.

You don't know that, but it's possible.

In the virgin Mary's womb, there was a human fetus ... due to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.
And also, at some point, the Word became Jesus ... either in the womb, or after He came out.

The bolded part is concerning. You could possibly say that the child was not Jesus until He was named Jesus, but that doesn't change who and what He was before He was named.

The Word became flesh, and was named Jesus. It seems legitimate to question whether the second person of the Trinity was ever called Jesus in eternity past and before the Resurrection. And perhaps He wasn't even the son of God until the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, but however that conception happened, the child, from conception, was the son of God.

Note the the scriptures say the Word became flesh, but they NEVER say the child became God or became the Son of God. So you seem to have gotten that part backward. There are numerous places where the scriptures talk about what the second person was or had before the incarnation, and they are all in relation to the God-man Jesus. So Jesus is identifiable with the second person, in eternity past, in creation, in glory. So it's not a good idea to try to maintain a distinction between the two when talking about His incarnation.

 

[Dougcho]

I'm just talking about semantics!
Gabriel said to CALL the Baby ... "Jesus" and "the Son of God".
This is something new ... these names, I mean.
Prior to the incarnation, this deity was simply "the Word".
And how could He be the Son of God
before being "fathered" by the Holy Spirit.
Surely, I'm not the only one who understands
that the Babe was to be called "the Son of God"
because God the Holy Spirit was His "father".
Over and out from the planet Jeez!

 

[Right Divider]

I'm just talking about semantics!
Gabriel said to CALL the Baby ... "Jesus" and "the Son of God".
This is something new ... these names, I mean.
Prior to the incarnation, this deity was simply "the Word".
And how could He be the Son of God
before being "fathered" by the Holy Spirit.
Surely, I'm not the only one who understands
that the Babe was to be called "the Son of God"
because God the Holy Spirit was His "father".
Over and out from the planet Jeez!

You confusion is sad.

Again, Jesus has always existed. He said so Himself.

John 17:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ​

That YOU refuse to listen to scripture is quite obvious.

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus has always existed. He said so Himself.

John 17:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ​

This glory was when He was "the Word" (John 1).
I should write this in red and in bold.
As per the OP ...
Before the Incarnation, the Triune Godhead was ...
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.
Obviously.

 

[Derf]

This glory was when He was "the Word" (John 1).

When did He stop being "the Word"?