ECT Under The Law

[Interplanner]

What Judaic background books?

I am not referring to history recorded by Luke or what Paul taught, etc. I am referring to the teachings of our Lord and Savior, who clearly stated that He only said/taught what God told Him to. I don't think God had to visit Hillel's teachings and go - oh, that sounds like a plan, let's give that to My Son so people can think He is reworking what Hillel said. Do you see the congruity of that? Or am I just a fool to think that God has His own "original" teachings?

Sorry, I haven't had my Judaic background books out for a while. Here's my memory:

Rabbi Sandmel. Judaism and Christians Beginnings.
Keller. The Bible as History.
Longenecker. Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period.
Brinsmead. Justification By Faith and Eschaology.
Bright. The Kingdom of God.
Rhoads. Israel in Revolution, 6-73 CE

 

[patrick jane]

Perhaps you can explain why so called "Law observant" Paul did not go up to Jerusalem for the 3 required yearly feasts for 14 years.

It is explained - find it

 

[Interplanner]

It is explained - find it

He just forgot to mention it in Acts 26 in the hearing that would impound him for good. He's just a little forgetful. Also he forgot to mention a future theocracy in Judea, that would have befriended him. A little forgetful, nervous.

One rule of thumb about futurists, D'ists, MADs: when it really matters in a NT context, it ain't there.

 

[patrick jane]

He just forgot to mention it in Acts 26 in the hearing that would impound him for good. He's just a little forgetful. Also he forgot to mention a future theocracy in Judea, that would have befriended him. A little forgetful, nervous.

One rule of thumb about futurists, D'ists, MADs: when it really matters in a NT context, it ain't there.

You harbor at least one demon, maybe more - :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

He just forgot to mention it in Acts 26 in the hearing that would impound him for good. He's just a little forgetful. Also he forgot to mention a future theocracy in Judea, that would have befriended him. A little forgetful, nervous.

One rule of thumb about futurists, D'ists, MADs: when it really matters in a NT context, it ain't there.

Israel's mission was temporarily no longer on the table.

At that point, Paul was asserting the resurection.

Which is the basis of both missions; the one temporarily no longer on the table; and the one that now was.

Thus, why they saw blood when he related that he had been sent unto the Gentiles.

And the Apostle Paul was not in the habit of back pedaling.

Period.

 

[patrick jane]

He just forgot to mention it in Acts 26 in the hearing that would impound him for good. He's just a little forgetful. Also he forgot to mention a future theocracy in Judea, that would have befriended him. A little forgetful, nervous.

One rule of thumb about futurists, D'ists, MADs: when it really matters in a NT context, it ain't there.

A careful reading of the text shows us that Paul was busy planting churches during this time before he was “officially commissioned” by the church. In Paul’s first missionary journey, he travelled west to Pamphylia by boat, and he reached the cities of Pisidian Antioch, Iconium, Lystra, and Derbe. However, he didn’t travel through the regions of Cilicia or Syria. In Acts 15:23, we read, “They sent this letter by them, ‘The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia…” Even though Paul was never in these regions of Cilicia and Syria on his first missionary journey, the Jerusalem Council decided to write their letter to these churches, which existed there. But, who planted these churches? Later, we read, “After some days Paul said to Barnabas, ‘Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are…’ 41And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches” (Acts 15:36, 41). This is an interesting verse to ponder, because Paul never went to these regions on his first missionary journey. He must have planted these churches earlier.


http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/romans-2/21-what-did-paul-do-in-the-14-year-period-before-his-second-journey/

 

[Interplanner]

A careful reading of the text shows us that Paul was busy planting churches during this time before he was “officially commissioned” by the church. In Paul’s first missionary journey, he travelled west to Pamphylia by boat, and he reached the cities of Pisidian Antioch, Iconium, Lystra, and Derbe. However, he didn’t travel through the regions of Cilicia or Syria. In Acts 15:23, we read, “They sent this letter by them, ‘The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia…” Even though Paul was never in these regions of Cilicia and Syria on his first missionary journey, the Jerusalem Council decided to write their letter to these churches, which existed there. But, who planted these churches? Later, we read, “After some days Paul said to Barnabas, ‘Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are…’ 41And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches” (Acts 15:36, 41). This is an interesting verse to ponder, because Paul never went to these regions on his first missionary journey. He must have planted these churches earlier.


http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/romans-2/21-what-did-paul-do-in-the-14-year-period-before-his-second-journey/

Good work: you put those 2 and 2 together.
Bad work: you thought that answered the question why he wasn't at the observed festivals. In Acts 20:16 he cuts short a visit to get to Jerusalem by Pentecost. So he could have done that all 14 years (he was clear on the west coast of Little Asia when he shortened that trip! Syria is next door!) and did sometimes. But in Acts 20 it is now time to do something strategic, so that is why he goes; it is almost an effortless route to an audience with Caesar.

Related question: was the discussion about how to do that Pentecost about his 'keeping the law' or was it a way for him to get 'intel' about how to get to Caesar? Clever as serpents; harmless as doves!

I think I am not less, but more, acquainted with the material.

 

[jamie]

The Twelve and their converts REMAINED under the Law.

Not true, who taught Stephen?

Acts 6:13-14 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”

Paul didn't teach Stephen, the apostles did.

Acts 7:58 ...And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

 

[Danoh]

A careful reading of the text shows us that Paul was busy planting churches during this time before he was “officially commissioned” by the church. In Paul’s first missionary journey, he travelled west to Pamphylia by boat, and he reached the cities of Pisidian Antioch, Iconium, Lystra, and Derbe. However, he didn’t travel through the regions of Cilicia or Syria. In Acts 15:23, we read, “They sent this letter by them, ‘The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia…” Even though Paul was never in these regions of Cilicia and Syria on his first missionary journey, the Jerusalem Council decided to write their letter to these churches, which existed there. But, who planted these churches? Later, we read, “After some days Paul said to Barnabas, ‘Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are…’ 41And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches” (Acts 15:36, 41). This is an interesting verse to ponder, because Paul never went to these regions on his first missionary journey. He must have planted these churches earlier.


http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/romans-2/21-what-did-paul-do-in-the-14-year-period-before-his-second-journey/

You've inadvertently set off the land mine again, PJ, lol.

Some Mads deny the above; but it is - in some ways - exactly an Acts 9 view on that.

Why? Based on what?

Based on Acts 9, Acts 15, and Acts 21, in light of Galatians 1.

Note...

Acts 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

So he goes into Tarsus - in Acts 9.

Where was Tarsus?

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Meaning he went to Cilicia - in Acts 9.

A region near what other area?

Galatians 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

He went to Syria and Cilicia - in Acts 9.

What did this Evangelist on fire for the lost like few in recorded history do there?

Sit around? Play with his smart phone? What?

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

He established Gentile assemblies.

15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

When was Barnabas there?

When he went to get Paul there; that's when...

The two got busy with the work of the ministry Paul had already established.

After which, Paul went back with Barnabus...

They then followed suit at Antioch...

Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 15 adds...

15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Paul's Gentile ministry BEFORE Acts 13.

In fact, Paul's "far hence" Gentile ministry as early as Acts 9 - DECADES before Acts 28...

Just a matter of studying a thing out through its' recurrent patterns.

 

[Danoh]

Not true, who taught Stephen?

Acts 6:13-14 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”

Paul didn't teach Stephen, the apostles did.

Acts 7:58 ...And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Lol - you are worse off in your view than IP is in his off-base one.

At least he is not all over the map as you ever are; at least he is often consistent in his view.

It is why you and he end up differing with one another on some understandings but not on others.

One minute you assert a view on a thing that is actually a Dispy view, the next minute you assert a view on a thing that is actually Reformed.

IP is at least highly consistent in his off-base much more Reformed view.

Recurrent patterns - they are ever reliable in revealing what's what as to the root of each man's assertions.

Watch a seasom of Columbo, or of Criminal minds.

Both are a good lesson in the study of the root of a thing through recurrent patterns.

Then apply that to your studies.

I know. I was doing this very thing before I first saw either of those two highly well written crime detection dramas and recognized there use of this exact same key for what it can allow the study and understanding of - the understanding of where the writers of Scripture are coming from.

Exodus 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

1 Chronicles 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat, 1 Chronicles 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

Follow the pattern such passages recurrently make obvious one is to model in one's own study of one thing or another as to "God's will..."

Do so rightly, and you should end up at the Apostle Paul's...

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

His had been a recurrent pattern...

Acts 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Corinthians 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2 Corinthians 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Follow HIS recurrent pattern, and you follow Paul as he followed Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[jamie]

He established Gentile assemblies.

Paul established assemblies in Gentile cities, but it was Paul who said there are no Gentiles in Christ.

 

[andyc]

:chuckle:

IP is rationalizing.

When God tells Peter to kill and eat was made clean apart from the law, common sense tells you that Peter was no longer under the law. But the maddies don't operate with common sense because it hurts their theology too much :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

Lol - you are worse off in your view than IP is in his off-base one.

At least he is not all over the map as you ever are; at least he is often consistent in his view.

It is why you and he end up differing with one another on some understandings but not on others.

One minute you assert a view on a thing that is actually a Dispy view, the next minute you assert a view on a thing that is actually Reformed.

IP is at least highly consistent in his off-base much more Reformed view.

Recurrent patterns - they are ever reliable in revealing what's what as to the root of each man's assertions.

Watch a seasom of Columbo, or of Criminal minds.

Both are a good lesson in the study of the root of a thing through recurrent patterns.

Then apply that to your studies.

I know. I was doing this very thing before I first saw either of those two highly well written crime detection dramas and recognized there use of this exact same key for what it can allow the study and understanding of - the understanding of where the writers of Scripture are coming from.

Exodus 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

1 Chronicles 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat, 1 Chronicles 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

Follow the pattern such passages recurrently make obvious one is to model in one's own study of one thing or another as to "God's will..."

Do so rightly, and you should end up at the Apostle Paul's...

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

His had been a recurrent pattern...

Acts 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Corinthians 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2 Corinthians 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Follow HIS recurrent pattern, and you follow Paul as he followed Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Yep, if you follow his pattern, you will see 2P2P as fraud.