Nanja
Well-known member
For sure Brother.
Unconditional Election: Is it True?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
For sure Brother.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to you the sanctification of the Spirit comes before believing and therefore before that person's sins are taken away:
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The false teaching that others on this site are spewing is that the new birth happens prior to believing. However, the following Scriptures prove that idea is wrong:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23, 25).
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
Nanja
Well-known member
Before a person is Born of the Spirit, / Born Again, they are in the flesh and nothing they do pleases God.
Rom. 8:7-9
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Nanja
Well-known member
That's for sure Bro.
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beloved57
Well-known member
I didn't write 2 Thess 2:13 Paul did by the Spirit. Do you believe Paul was inspired by God to write scripture?
beloved57
Well-known member
Tell it like it is Sister. These folk don't believe in total inability spiritually of the natural man!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and no one is born again until he believes the gospel:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23, 25).
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
Nanja
Well-known member
Nonsense ! Before a person is Born of the Spirit, his own believing is something a person does: A work of the flesh that cannot please God Rom. 8:8 !
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you say that a person is born again before he believes even though the following two verses contradict that idea:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23, 25).
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
Nanja, it is obvious that you don't believe what Peter and James wrote. Why do you think that you know more about this subject than those two men?
7djengo7
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Whence did you get the idea that belief is a work? That believing is working?
Also, what gripe do you imagine you have against the fact that belief/believing is something a person does?
Would you say that everything that is done, or can be done--everything that something does, or can do--is a work? If belief--faith--can be "without works", then obviously faith--belief--is not, itself, a work. James says that "Faith without works is dead"; he does not say "[A work] without works is dead." It would obviously be ludicrous and false to say that a work is, or could be "without works".
So, please tell whence, in the Bible, you imagine you get the idea that faith/belief is a work. Please tell whence, in the Bible, you imagine you get the idea that every thing that is done, or that can be done, must be a work, solely by virtue of the fact that it is a thing that is done, or that can be done.
You say that, in an unregenerate person, believing is "a work of the flesh". All right, so what about in a regenerate person? Is believing "a work of the flesh" in a regenerate person? Would you say that, in a regenerate person, believing is a work, just as you say it is in an unregenerate person? Or, instead, would you say that believing is only a work in an unregenerate person, but that believing is not a work in a regenerate person?
If, in a regenerate person, believing is a work, but not "a work of the flesh", then of what is it a work? Is it "a work of the spirit"? If so, then of what spirit? Of whose spirit?
I know of no passage in Scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit does people's believing for them; rather, from the Bible, I get the idea that people do their own believing, or, at least, are responsible to do their own believing. Believing--like eating a sandwich--is not something that is, or can be, done vicariously, for one, by another. So, in any case, if you want to call believing a "work", then you can't get rationally get away from having believing--even in the case of a regenerate person--being a work of the one doing the believing.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course you won't believe the following because it is in the Bible but Paul himself makes it plain that in his mind " believing" is not a work:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).
Paul places believing in the category of not working. You must think that you know more than Paul on this subject. Where did you ever get that strange idea?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at the following verse again:
"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
This verse is speaking about "salvation"--"chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit."
You say that the "sanctification of the Spirit is a work of the Spirit that comes before believing the truth!
According to your idea a person is saved before he believes the truth.
Is that your argument?
beloved57
Well-known member
I love that verse. However it says nothing about believing not being a work.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once again you deny that no one is born again until they believe the gospel despite what Peter and James wrote:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23, 25).
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
What makes you think that you know more about this subject than both Peter and James?
beloved57
Well-known member
I know what the verse says. It places Sanctification of the Spirit before the belief of the truth.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It says "chose you for SALVATION through sanctification by the Spirit":
"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Paul ties SALVATION and SANCTIFICATION together so you must ignore that fact because it doesn't match your ideas. What makes you think that you know more about this subject than Paul does?
beloved57
Well-known member
A lost person cannot believe the Gospel because it's hid to the lost 2Cor 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: