Trump: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

[Town Heretic]

Her past as a Playboy model should have no impact on the weight of the truth of her allegations. I've seen this done already and I don't think it's wise to go down that road.

By itself I'd agree. It's part of a larger package. She made her inroad to note by the easiest route available, by objectifying and using her own sexuality and appeal and it appears to me that she's still utilizing that methodology, if with a twist. It at least raises an eyebrow.

Should we extend to her the same as we do the women with allegations against Moore? I believe we should.

I'd say they are very different animals for a number of purely objective reasons. But what allegations? She says that she was groped. She was asleep and the only evidence of that would be the photo, which really doesn't support it. She said she was kissed once, rebuffed him and that was that. Did it happen? I don't know. If it did what should the fallout be absent a pattern on his part or some other event?

I'm bothered that she's used the language of sexual battery to describe something that at best appears a sophomoric attempt at humor.

I know you're not defending him, and I agree that it was a stupid thing to do.

It absolutely was. And it was also absolutely of its time and the nature of the roles they were playing before the troops. Doesn't excuse it, but it does contextualize it and an apology seems apt. More feels...political and willfully so.

But the fact is that he did it, and what a sad state of affairs it's come to that we're now examining shadows underneath hands.

It's the "it" he did that's meaningful. What was that, really? What is reasonable to believe about it and what strains for something Moore.

The thing about a photo is that it captures a moment in time. It doesn't tell us what's outside the frame of that moment in time. Or what happened before and after that moment in time.

Sure. I think that's exactly right.

Not telling anyone in 11 years? That's not an argument I want to hear.

You're not really hearing me if you reduce the quote to that. I understand silence in the face of authority and the fear and humiliation that can drive that. I'm saying that she's couched that silence in a fear of reprisal and career damage. But she's worked for Fox for years where any dirt on the left would have materially helped her career. It will be interesting to watch its trajectory now.

It was on a CD of photos given to her by the photographer.

Right. And Franken engineered that photo.

That the climate is different now, that people are more sensitive now?

It's so way past overdue.

Yes to both. I'm thinking back to Johnny Carson and the trouble he'd have had with so much of the routines that went on back then. It's an increasingly better environment for women and others who were routinely the butt of sexually charged humor.

I remember being taken to a comedy show when I was 21. I was horrified to see the comedian bring a woman from the audience onstage and begin to grope her, to the crowd's enjoyment and her obvious discomfort. I remember I started to cry and told the person I was with to get me out of there. I havn't been to a comedy show since. But as long as there's an audience willing to pay, there'll be comedians giving them what they want.

Andrew Dice Clay made a career of it.

He's offered to undergo an ethics review. Dems are calling for an ethics review. Let's see it go forward.

I understand why he did that. I think absent more it's an enormous waste of time and money. Over a decade ago by the worst estimation possible a comedian was rebuffed by someone he kissed and made a stupid photo. Neither of those would constitute a convictable offense in any criminal court. Neither have been purported to represent his conduct since. So the point seems mostly to me to be about Al wanting to use the public forum to a) apologize more formally, b) clarify his record on women's issues, and c) clear the air for his continued role as chief thorn in the side for the Republican party.

On the other side of it there's a political hope to pull his teeth and maybe find some dirt.

I don't know how popular he is, exactly. I saw his reelection numbers and they weren't impressive.

He's immensely popular among intellectuals on the left and among many for his role mentioned above.

And it's politics. I wish it wasn't just that. I wish this wasn't just as much of a human problem as it's always been. It's discouraging.

Sadly true.

 

[Town Heretic]

More Tweeden. While on her radio show she noted that people make mistakes and appeared to accept the proffered apology of Franken, before immediately following that appearance with, "I'm not calling for him to step down" which no one had suggested to her before her offering it. And, just behind that, "It's not my place to say that." Really? It isn't? Is it just her place to put the suggestion into play then?

And lastly, in that same stream, when asked if that opinion would change if more allegations surfaced she offered that she'd received a call from a woman who said "something similar" had happened to her [with Franken?] and that she [Tweeden] "didn't know" and hadn't returned the phone call. Really? Because you'd think it being a little important and all...why wouldn't she be burning up that phone line? She's been clear about her disgust, outrage, ect. Now someone comes forward privately and she hasn't gotten around to looking into it?

What could explain it? Well, the desire to do damage without raising personal liability, for one. She's not the one saying it. No. She's just comfortable offering an unsubstantiated rumor to prop her own narrative with. And she caps it all off with a declaration that she doesn't know if that would change anything for her, about how she feels about calling for him to step down.

Okay.

 

[annabenedetti]

By itself I'd agree. It's part of a larger package. She made her inroad to note by the easiest route available, by objectifying and using her own sexuality and appeal and it appears to me that she's still utilizing that methodology, if with a twist. It at least raises an eyebrow.

That's not the issue here. It seems to me that you're wanting to characterize her as less than wholesome so as to question her credibility.

I don't want to think that's what you're doing, I'd like to think I'm misunderstanding you on this.

I'd say they are very different animals for a number of purely objective reasons. But what allegations? She says that she was groped. She was asleep and the only evidence of that would be the photo, which really doesn't support it. She said she was kissed once, rebuffed him and that was that. Did it happen? I don't know. If it did what should the fallout be absent a pattern on his part or some other event?

I don't know. Do you need a pattern for something to have happened?

Is her he said/she said less credible than anyone else's because she was involved in a comedy revue and was a model?

I'm bothered that she's used the language of sexual battery to describe something that at best appears a sophomoric attempt at humor.

I'm bothered that you'd consider being kissed without her consent and possibly groped (because we don't know, do we?) without her consent to be an attempt at humor.

It absolutely was. And it was also absolutely of its time and the nature of the roles they were playing before the troops. Doesn't excuse it, but it does contextualize it and an apology seems apt. More feels...political and willfully so.

I'm not going to argue with those calling for an ethics review.

It's the "it" he did that's meaningful. What was that, really? What is reasonable to believe about it and what strains for something Moore.

Was he in mid-grope at the time the photo was taken? We don't know. I don't think it strains reason to wonder if it did.

You're not really hearing me if you reduce the quote to that.

You're not hearing me if you don't understand the significance of what I quoted.

I understand silence in the face of authority and the fear and humiliation that can drive that. I'm saying that she's couched that silence in a fear of reprisal and career damage. But she's worked for Fox for years where any dirt on the left would have materially helped her career. It will be interesting to watch its trajectory now.

Why women keep their silence is unique to each individual and situation. We don't know the hows and whys of how they contextualize it in view of their position in life, their career, their perception of how they think it would be received.

Right. And Franken engineered that photo.

And that makes it better because.... ?

I understand why he did that. I think absent more it's an enormous waste of time and money. Over a decade ago by the worst estimation possible a comedian was rebuffed by someone he kissed and made a stupid photo.

It's not the worst possible estimation and that it happened over a decade ago is irrelevant. The worst possible estimation is that the photo doesn't capture all that happened and/or that there are other allegations out there waiting to be made. Either is possible.

Neither of those would constitute a convictable offense in any criminal court. Neither have been purported to represent his conduct since. So the point seems mostly to me to be about Al wanting to use the public forum to a) apologize more formally, b) clarify his record on women's issues, and c) clear the air for his continued role as chief thorn in the side for the Republican party.

So then let it go forward.

 

[Town Heretic]

Do you need a pattern for something to have happened?

No. In my experience you get them where there's a problem instead of a momentary lapse of judgement though.

Is her he said/she said less credible than anyone else's because she was involved in a comedy revue and was a model?

She was a model in the sense that the guy working security at a strip club in uniform is a cop, but no, it's less credible because of a number of factors that combine in her and not any one factor in isolation. It's not authoritative, but it is at least indicative of the potential for a problem.

I'm bothered that you'd consider being kissed without her consent and possibly groped (because we don't know, do we?) without her consent to be an attempt at humor.

I'd said the photo seemed to me an illustration of juvenile humor. And only that.

I'm not going to argue with those calling for an ethics review.

I haven't either, though I've said what I think about it absent more than what we have on hand.

Was he in mid-grope at the time the photo was taken? We don't know. I don't think it strains reason to wonder if it did.

Nearly anything is possible, but is it probable? I've set out why I think it isn't.

Edit: add to that list the fact that she's wearing a flack jacket. Presumably over her breasts.

You're not hearing me if you don't understand the significance of what I quoted.

Could be. Mostly I was trying to gently move you off an isolation that didn't actually reflect my thinking. I'm open to hearing what it was you believe I missed though. It wasn't intentional.

Why women keep their silence is unique to each individual and situation. We don't know the hows and whys of how they contextualize it in view of their position in life, their career, their perception of how they think it would be received.

Fair enough as a rule. Rules tend to break down along exceptions though and I believe that I've set out enough circumstance to warrant considering it exceptionally. Not deciding it's the case, but considering it.

And that makes it better because.... ?

I didn't say it makes it better. I said it makes the poor taste joke the more likely understanding of it.

It's not the worst possible estimation and that it happened over a decade ago is irrelevant.

Okay. Conceded.

So then let it go forward.

Sure. And if it turns out that there is more to this then meets the eye I hope he gets it right between his political eyes.

An addition:

Um. Yeah. I think that's entirely possible. People who don't think there's anything wrong with what they're doing, and people who don't think there will be any fallout from what they're doing.

Missed answering this the first time around, but I'd say that's exactly when you look for a pattern to support the notion. Because a person who believes that he's entitled or insulated won't stop there and then. It doesn't seem in keeping with Franken, but if it is there's a lot more than one woman and one photo.

 

[Town Heretic]

Meanwhile...

Eight women who used to work for Franken issued a joint statement Friday morning vouching for the senator, saying he treated them "with the utmost respect" while working in his office.​

​

"He valued our work and our opinions and was a champion for women both in the legislation he supported and in promoting women to leadership roles in our offices," the statement said.​

And that's where an investigation should begin. Ask the women who were around him in Congress how he treated or treats them. If he's a predator it will likely show up there. And if it does, I'm at the front of the line to boot him.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Should we extend to her the same as we do the women with allegations against Moore? I believe we should.

And those against clinton, i bet you voted for him anyway knowing them. Wheres the outrage there?

 

[Tambora]

Accusations are pilling up on Al Franken.

 

[Tambora]

Menendez.
Will the Democrats cuddle back up with him?
:straight:


opcorn:

 

[Town Heretic]

Now it looks like Fox is desperately trying to find something to fuel the fire with Franken. Anything to distract from the clown car disaster that is the Trump administration.

That said, Colbert said something about the matter, about Franken's apology, that resonated with me. In speaking to his "meant to be funny/wasn't" response, Colbert said, “No. Your movie ‘Stuart Saves His Family’ was intended to be funny but wasn’t,” Colbert said. “That photo was intended to embarrass her. That’s why he did it while she was asleep.”

And when I thought about it that made more sense to me, especially if it came on the heels of and not before the kiss and rebuff. A passive-aggressive reaction to the rejection would line up with an otherwise bafflingly sophomoric joke photo, though continuing to call it a grope continues to be unconvincing in light of both circumstance and attire.

It wasn't about that, or locker room humor, if we consider Colbert's perspective. It was about a guy not handling rejection and responding by trying to make the other party's remaining time unpleasant. That's pretty small and it's worth more than a denial of the root and an apology for a photo wrapped in mischaracterization.

I don't know that's what happened, but if it was then it does make sense. By itself it shouldn't cost him his job, but it's worthy of further censure.

 

[Rusha]

Now it looks like Fox is desperately trying to find something to fuel the fire with Franken. Anything to distract from the clown car disaster that is the Trump administration.

That said, Colbert said something about the matter, about Franken's apology, that resonated with me. In speaking to his "meant to be funny/wasn't" response, Colbert said, “No. Your movie ‘Stuart Saves His Family’ was intended to be funny but wasn’t,” Colbert said. “That photo was intended to embarrass her. That’s why he did it while she was asleep.”

And when I thought about it that made more sense to me, especially if it came on the heels of and not before the kiss and rebuff. A passive-aggressive reaction to the rejection would line up with an otherwise bafflingly sophomoric joke photo, though continuing to call it a grope continues to be unconvincing in light of both circumstance and attire.

It wasn't about that, or locker room humor, if we consider Colbert's perspective. It was about a guy not handling rejection and responding by trying to make the other party's remaining time unpleasant. That's pretty small and it's worth more than a denial of the root and an apology for a photo wrapped in mischaracterization.

I don't know that's what happened, but if it was then it does make sense. By itself it shouldn't cost him his job, but it's worthy of further censure.

His actions were sickening ... his response was refreshing. The way to know that someone has the capacity to change is when they ADMIT their guilt and apologize. Unlike Trump and Moore. The fact that these two doubled-down and attacked their victims just proves that they are irredeemable.

 

[Town Heretic]

His actions were sickening ...

My impulse is to think of the woman as someone's daughter. I'd have put him on his seat, then roused her and given him a chance to apologize in real time.

his response was refreshing. The way to know that someone has the capacity to change is when they ADMIT their guilt and apologize. Unlike Trump and Moore. The fact that these two doubled-down and attacked their victims just proves that they are irredeemable.

It was the right move, though if he did kiss her I guarantee you he recalls it and he should own it too or it brings the sincerity and point of his apology into question.

If he didn't kiss her it makes the rest harder to fathom. We have to believe that he fell into a fairly juvenile stunt with the photo. Now, honestly, guys do that sort of crap to each other routinely in certain environments. But a woman would have to opt in for most guys I know in that situation to be comfortable including her in it.

I can see different potential explanations like this one or Colbert's take and what flows from it. I don't think any of them puts Franken's conduct in an acceptable light for someone of his age and acumen at the time of the incident(s?). But then, comedians aren't really noted for particular maturity and maybe the thing that makes him good at that made him his own worst enemy then. :idunno:

Again, I'd say go talk to his past staffers. The people he'd be most empowered around, many of whom would likely idolize him or be intimidated by his power as a Senator. See what they have to say about him in his role. A guy with that particular immaturity issue, if he's more like Tweeden's mental picture of him, is going to repeat that effort or error. It's not going to be an outlier, unless he learned from it.

 

[Tambora]

Al's photo was just locker room comedy.

 

[kmoney]

Al's photo was just locker room comedy.

I've heard of locker room talk but not locker room comedy. Maybe I'm missing what you mean but most locker rooms don't have sleeping women who are photographed as a man pretends to grope them. This goes a step beyond normal 'locker room' guy stuff because having a permanent record of it. And depending on the timing there could have been a more vindictive motivation behind it (see TH's post above).

I do think that actions intended to be funny should be separated from actual harassment (so the alleged forced kiss is more severe) but a photograph while sleeping is still a violation beyond 'locker room' scenarios.

 

[kmoney]

I'd say they are very different animals for a number of purely objective reasons.

What reasons?

 

[annabenedetti]

Now it looks like Fox is desperately trying to find something to fuel the fire with Franken. Anything to distract from the clown car disaster that is the Trump administration.

That's a given. This Panama deal is looking pretty bad for him.

Then the groper-in-chief tries to lecture Franken while staying silent on Moore.

Gotta love Sarah Sander's response to yesterday's question though. Asked about the difference between the allegations against Moore and the allegations against Trump, she replied that:

"Franken has admitted wrongdoing and the president hasn’t."

Which is the crux of everything Trump-related right there. Trump works this way, and has set the example for the administration. Do what you want, legal or not - and never let them catch you in an apology. That kind of brash in-your-face flouting of the law looks so good to the Trump followers, who want the laws they want to keep society "Christian and law-abiding," but the rest of the laws, break whatever needs breaking.

As for our conversation about Franken, I think we both shared our thinking to an adequate extent. I understand what you're saying, and I hope you understand what I'm saying. His apology sets a tone and a standard they can't hope to meet, I'll give him that. There's nothing much to do except watch what happens. This year and a half slow-motion train wreck has been kind of exhausting.

 

[patrick jane]

Al's photo was just locker room comedy.

He was a stand up comedian. It was crude and outrageous, comedians do that, they are class clowns. It didn't look like he touched her in the picture I saw. A forced kiss is a desperate act of a horny person, no doubt.

 

[kmoney]

Good:


Trump starts paying his own legal bills on Russia probe: attorneys
U.S. President Donald Trump has begun paying his own legal bills related to the Russia investigation and will no longer cover the costs using political donations to his re-election campaign or the Republican Party, his attorneys confirmed on Friday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...bills-on-russia-probe-attorneys-idUSKBN1DH2FR

 

[kmoney]

Tentatively good:


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump said in a tweet on Friday he is putting a decision to allow imports of elephant trophies on hold after a torrent of criticism from conservation advocates and across social media.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ant-trophy-imports-after-uproar-idUSKBN1DH2CQ

 

[annabenedetti]

Ivanka Trump posted on Twitter today:

Ivanka Trump HQ‏Verified account @IvankaTrumpHQFollowFollow

@IvankaTrumpHQ

​

Have no idea how to decorate your Thanksgiving table? Problem solved: http://bit.ly/2zGtLQp

Helpful advice for Ivanka soon followed:

Lizzie65‏ @LorraineP65FollowFollow

@LorraineP65​

​

Replying to @IvankaTrumpHQ

As an alternative, consider the lovely simplicity of this stainless steel tray with matching flatware. Not only will it provide a timeless symmetry to your table, it will also be such a kind gesture to help prepare your family for holidays in a more institutionalized setting.

:chuckle:



:chuckle:

 

[kmoney]

I know Ivanka is part of her father's administration which opens herself up to some blowback but can't she post something nice related to Thanksgiving without getting mocked or attacked? Sheesh.