ECT True or False?: The Spiritual Dead Cannot Contribute to Receiving Spiritual Life

[fishrovmen]

I really don't know why this is even a discussion.
I know that you (Jerry) know the arguements that have been given by many over the course of years and what the supporting scriptures are that are used on both sides.
As far as dealing with just the title of this thread alone, spiritual life is either a free gift, or it's not.
If it is something that someone contributes toward in order to receive, that doesn't sound like a free gift to me, that sounds like buying something, it costs something to recieve it.
I don't see any language in the bible that even hints that we give anything in order to receive something while yet "spiritually dead".
What would/can/did COVID patients on ventilators "contribute" to regaining their health? They might be aware that they are sick and aware that they need help and badly want that help, but in the end, do any of those things "contribute" to regaining their health (and that is a poor analogy for something immensely greater such as spiritual life).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What I "knew" in my head not only did NOT in anyway contribute to spiritual life, it repelled me AWAY because my heart was dead. My heart would not agree with what my head "knew".

You are ignoring the fact that a person who is spiritually dead can know that he is a sinner. And before a spiritually dead person can believe the gospel that declares that Christ died for our sins he has to first acknowledge that he is a sinner.

A spiritually dead person cannot believe the gospel that Christ died for our sins if he doesn't think he is a sinner. A spirtually dead person's conscience reveals to him that he is a sinner.

I know that you (Jerry) know the arguements that have been given by many over the course of years and what the supporting scriptures are that are used on both sides.

Evidently you believe that a spiritually dead person must be made alive by the spirit in order that person can believe. That is the idea that regeneration precedes faith. However, the following words of the Lord Jesus contradict that idea:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

How can the Lord Jesus' words bring spiritual life to those who already possess spiritual life?

 

[fishrovmen]

Jerry, what does "dead" mean? this isn't a trap or trick, just a simple question. Again, what can an intubated, ventilated COVID patients conscience "contribute" to regain their health?
Do they know that they are sick? Do they know that they need help? How does that "knowing" "contribute" to the restoration of their health?
No, I do not ignore that a spiritually dead can "know" that he is a sinner, I already showed how that does NOT "contribute" to receive something that is freely given.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, what does "dead" mean? this isn't a trap or trick, just a simple question. Again, what can an intubated, ventilated COVID patients conscience "contribute" to regain their health?

Before a spiritually dead person can possibly believe the gospel that Christ died for our sins he must believe that he is a sinner. And the conscience provides the proof that he is a sinner and without that knowledge he cannot believe the gospel.

No, I do not ignore that a spiritually dead can "know" that he is a sinner, I already showed how that does NOT "contribute" to receive something that is freely given.

The spiritually dead person's knowledge that he is a sinner contributes to him being able to believe the gospel. Without that knowledge it is impossible for him to believe the gospel.

Does "believing the gospel" contribute to receiving something that is freely given? Now please answer my response to what you said here:

I know that you (Jerry) know the arguements that have been given by many over the course of years and what the supporting scriptures are that are used on both sides.

Evidently you believe that a spiritually dead person must be made alive by the spirit in order that person can believe. That is the idea that regeneration precedes faith. However, the following words of the Lord Jesus contradict that idea:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

How can the Lord Jesus' words bring spiritual life to those who already possess spiritual life?

 

[fishrovmen]

I already answered that man cannot and will not believe ON HIS OWN that he is a sinner, post #16. He can have a head knowledge and even feel some kind of guilt or shame but none of that can give him spiritual life.
As I asked before Jerry, is spiritual life a free gift?, a partnership? a gift that requires anything added to make it effective?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As I asked before Jerry, is spiritual life a free gift?, a partnership? a gift that requires anything added to make it effective?

Yes, it is a free gift as is eternal life. But in order to receive the gift of eternal life a person must first believe. And the Lord Jesus makes it plain that it is His word that results in spiritual life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

His words bring spiritual life so it is evident that no one receives spiritual life until they believe His word.

Do you agree with that?

 

[fishrovmen]

Yes, it is a free gift as is eternal life. But in order to receive the gift of eternal life a person must first believe. And the Lord Jesus makes it plain that it is His word that results in spiritual life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

His words bring spiritual life so it is evident that no one receives spiritual life until they believe His word.

Do you agree with that?

Yes, and the faith to believe is also a gift.

 

[fishrovmen]

The conscience that is convinced of sin is the gift, the leading to repentance is the gift, the granting of repentance is the gift, the faith that "faiths" is the gift, the confession is the gift, the righteousness, the forgiveness, the indwelling etc. and etc. it is all "the gift".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, and the faith to believe is also a gift.

So you admit that no one receives spiritual life until they believe the gospel?

Besides that, if faith is a gift of God then the reason that the unsaved are not saved is because they don't receive that gift. However, the Scriptures declare that some do not come to the knowledge of the truth is because their deeds are evil and not because they didn't receive a so-called gift of faith:

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed" (Jn.3:18-20).​

In his commentary on these verse John Calvin wrote that "no man may ascribe his 'condemnation' to Christ, he shows that every man ought to impute the blame to himself. The reason is, that unbelief is a testimony of a bad conscience; and hence it is evident that it is their own wickedness which hinders unbelievers from approaching to Christ."

According to Calvin that which hinders some unbelievers from approaching Christ is their own wickedness. Therefore, what hinders some unbelievers from approaching Christ is not that they did not receive a so-called gift of faith.

 

[fishrovmen]

He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son...you know the verse!

 

[Bradley D]

When did you first hear and believe the gospel of your salvation, Bradley? Or do you think you received spiritual life apart from hearing and believing the gospel?

I was baptised and confirmed in the Episcopal Church. Unfortunately, the world seem to have much influence on me. Even when an alcoholic when aboard ship I read from the Bible in my rack. But, when inport I went out drank and fornicated. So when I finally got sober thanks to God I gave myself to Him. I turned back to christianity and the Word.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son...you know the verse!

That doesn't answer anything.

You didn't answer my following question:

So you admit that no one receives spiritual life until they believe the gospel?​

Also, you didn't answer what I said about John 3:18-20.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I was baptised and confirmed in the Episcopal Church.

You don't remember when you first heard and believed the gospel of the grace of God?

 

[Bradley D]

You don't remember when you first heard and believed the gospel of the grace of God?

If you are looking for a specific date no. I remember one morning doing my meditation and prayer I had what AA calls a spiritual experience. I was reflecting on my first two years of sobriety. I thought of the moments I did not know what to do. I prayed to God and the answer seem to come. That morning I came to believe that there was a God and that He was working my life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you are looking for a specific date no.

No, I am not looking for a specific date. But do you remember hearing the gospel of the grace of God and believing that gospel?

Did that happen prior to the time when you had the spiritual experience which you experienced or after?

 

[fishrovmen]

That doesn't answer anything.

You didn't answer my following question:

So you admit that no one receives spiritual life until they believe the gospel?​

Also, you didn't answer what I said about John 3:18-20.

The scripture IS an/the answer to "spiritual death". As far as timing (if there is any) and what comes first or happens first or any of that stuff...what does it really matter?
The bottom line for me is that I see nothing at all about man "contributing" anything to receive from God while "spiritually dead" and I believe God gifts His Son as /how/when He pleases.
He most cerainly knows what we need and when and how to give it to us.
I certainly am ever gracious to receive that gift and have no desire to speculate about the hows/whys/whens etc. if they are not revealed to us.
As far as believing the gospel, of course no one can receive spiritual life without it because His Word is the means by which He uses to quicken us.

 

[Bradley D]

No, I am not looking for a specific date. But do you remember hearing the gospel of the grace of God and believing that gospel?

Did that happen prior to the time when you had the spiritual experience which you experienced or after?

No I do not remember hearing it as at a assembly. When I was in inpatient treatment for my alcoholism at Tripler Army Hospital in Hawaii I went to a Sunday meeting and hearing the chaplin read out of the 51st Psalm. That had quite an impact on me.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God,

and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from Your presence;

take not Your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,

and sustain me with a willing spirit."

 

[OZOS]

Death is separation. When a person dies physically they are separated from their body. They do not cease to exist. The world is dead spiritually (separated from the life of God) until they receive His life when they believe the gospel and are indwelt by His Holy Spirit. (It is the Spirit that gives life). The spiritually dead can hear the gospel and believe it. Otherwise, the gospel is powerless.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[beloved57]

The spiritually dead cannot do anything Spiritually, for they have no Spiritual life in them Jn 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

See eating and drinking are evidences of Life. If we dont already have physical life, we cannot eat and drink physically, so likewise if we dont already have Spiritual life we cannot eat or drink of Christ Spiritually !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The spiritually dead cannot do anything Spiritually, for they have no Spiritual life in them Jn 6:53.

They can believe the gospel because it comes in power and in much assurance and in the Holy Spirit (1 Th.1:5).