Transgenderism, sex and gender

[Right Divider]

And there are millions of people born with them.

These are abnormalities.

Category? I figure they can call themselves whatever they like and medical science can refer to their condition in whatever terms they prefer.

So it's completely arbitrary?

Thanks for the info.

 

[Jose Fly]

These are abnormalities.

So? So are people born with red hair.

So it's completely arbitrary?

Nope, never said that.

 

[Right Divider]

So? So are people born with red hair.

No, they are not Mr. Genetics Expert.

Nope, never said that.

And there are millions of people born with them.

Category? I figure they can call themselves whatever they like and medical science can refer to their condition in whatever terms they prefer.

Someone calling themselves WHATEVER THEY LIKE is completely ARBITRARY.

 

[Jose Fly]

No, they are not Mr. Genetics Expert.

Sure they are. Only about 1-2% of the human population is born with red hair. By definition, that makes red hair "abnormal".

Someone calling themselves WHATEVER THEY LIKE is completely ARBITRARY.

By the same token "Christian" is arbitrary.

 

[Right Divider]

Sure they are. Only about 1-2% of the human population is born with red hair. By definition, that makes red hair "abnormal".

So, according to the great Jose Fly, blondes are also abnormal? Where do you draw the line of "normal genetic variation"?

By the same token "Christian" is arbitrary.

Invalid and illogical comparison. And you try to come off as sooooo smart.

 

[Jose Fly]

So, according to the great Jose Fly, blondes are also abnormal? Where do you draw the line of "normal genetic variation"?

I don't draw such lines. Like I said, biology is anything but cut and dry as conservatives try and make it.

Invalid and illogical comparison.

Because you say so. Gee, thanks.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't draw such lines. Like I said, biology is anything but cut and dry as conservatives try and make it.

So you now confirm that you're good with peoples arbitrary definitions of themselves. OK.

Because you say so. Gee, thanks.

You cannot understand simple logic. How do you expect to communication with real people?

Comparing peoples religious choices has NOTHING to do with the topic being discussed.

P.S. Who is a "conservative" and what do THEY have to do with this discussion?

 

[Jose Fly]

So you now confirm that you're good with peoples arbitrary definitions of themselves. OK.

Why would you deny people the freedom to refer to themselves as they wish? When people born with dwarfism said they wanted to be referred to as "little people", were you all like "Nope, you can't do that. You must continue to use the terms I have decided are appropriate"?

Comparing peoples religious choices has NOTHING to do with the topic being discussed.

Sure....because you say so. Great job.

P.S. Who is a "conservative" and what do THEY have to do with this discussion?

Meh....not important.

 

[Right Divider]

Why would you deny people the freedom to refer to themselves as they wish?

When did I says any such thing? I did NOT. My point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that people calling themselves ANYTHING that THEY LIKE is arbitrary.

When people born with dwarfism said they wanted to be referred to as "little people", were you all like "Nope, you can't do that. You must continue to use the terms I have decided are appropriate"?

Once again, as FALSE accusation on your part.

 

[Jose Fly]

When did I says any such thing? I did NOT. My point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that people calling themselves ANYTHING that THEY LIKE is arbitrary.

So? A group of people pick a word they use to refer to themselves. So what?

 

[Poly]

Yes, I think they are different things. The term "sex" relative to an individual refers to the structure of their genitalia. While the term "gender" relative to an individual refers to their sexual identification. But this is a difference that the simpletons and ignoramuses among us can't grasp, and so they get all upset and confused whenever a difference is being alluded to. And to multiply their ignorance, "gender" identification is subjective. Meaning that I might assign a different gender to person "X" than person "X" might assign to themselves, or from the gender that person "Y" might assign to them. Because gender assignment is just that: assigned. And it may or may not correspond with the structure of the genitalia of the assignee, or with the criteria of other people.

And that's the real difference: criteria. We all pretty much agree on the criteria for designating an individual's sex because it is objective. We do not all agree on the criteria for assigning an individual's gender because it is subjective.

How do I know this? Well, partly because we are having this discussion/debate. And partly because I have personally known people who's designated sex does not coincide with their gender assignment, by themselves, and/or by others. And because I am capable of understanding the difference between a label and the thing/person to which the label is being attached.

I identify as a person who thinks you're full of it!

 

[annabenedetti]

Yes, I think they are different things. The term "sex" relative to an individual refers to the structure of their genitalia. While the term "gender" relative to an individual refers to their sexual identification. But this is a difference that the simpletons and ignoramuses among us can't grasp, and so they get all upset and confused whenever a difference is being alluded to. And to multiply their ignorance, "gender" identification is subjective. Meaning that I might assign a different gender to person "X" than person "X" might assign to themselves, or from the gender that person "Y" might assign to them. Because gender assignment is just that: assigned. And it may or may not correspond with the structure of the genitalia of the assignee, or with the criteria of other people.

And that's the real difference: criteria. We all pretty much agree on the criteria for designating an individual's sex because it is objective. We do not all agree on the criteria for assigning an individual's gender because it is subjective.

How do I know this? Well, partly because we are having this discussion/debate. And partly because I have personally known people who's designated sex does not coincide with their gender assignment, by themselves, and/or by others. And because I am capable of understanding the difference between a label and the thing/person to which the label is being attached.

I agree with your general idea. Gender may be subject to change - across individuals, and across cultures. It's a social construct, in a way that sex isn't. But even sex isn't completely black and white (intersex individuals, for example), though when I pointed out that about 1 in 20,000 men are born without a Y chromosome, I was told to go to hell. :chuckle:

 

[Right Divider]

I agree with your general idea. Gender may be subject to change - across individuals, and across cultures. It's a social construct, in a way that sex isn't. But even sex isn't completely black and white (intersex individuals, for example), though when I pointed out that about 1 in 20,000 men are born without a Y chromosome, I was told to go to hell. :chuckle:

Do you believe that God created more than two sexes?

 

[annabenedetti]

Do you believe that God created more than two sexes?

Before I answer that, do you disagree with any of my post?

In addition, are you aware that there were many children born with ambiguous genitalia whose official sex was determined by the doctor and/or parents, and those children as they grew to adulthood had always felt they were not the sex they'd been assigned at birth?

 

[Right Divider]

Before I answer that, do you disagree with any of my post?

In addition, are you aware that there were many children born with ambiguous genitalia whose official sex was determined by the doctor and/or parents, and those children as they grew to adulthood had always felt they were not the sex they'd been assigned at birth?

God created one man and one woman.

At the fall, God put a curse on the creation. This is why there are a multitude of deformities and abnormalities in the human population.

I understand that there are problems, but people make it worst by having and anything goes definition of these things.

 

[Jose Fly]

Do you believe that God created more than two sexes?

I suppose if you're of the belief that God creates people, then given the innate diversity in chromosomes, genitalia, and hormones we see around us right now, I'd be interested in hearing how you reconcile the two.

 

[Right Divider]

I suppose if you're of the belief that God creates people, then given the innate diversity in chromosomes, genitalia, and hormones we see around us right now, I'd be interested in hearing how you reconcile the two.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...x-and-gender&p=4725583&viewfull=1#post4725583

 

[annabenedetti]

God created one man and one woman.

At the fall, God put a curse on the creation. This is why there are a multitude of deformities and abnormalities in the human population.

I understand that there are problems, but people make it worst by having and anything goes definition of these things.

Do you believe you have the right to tell people who assign themselves a different gender that they can't, or shouldn't do so? And if so, by what authority?

In answer to your question, my current belief on the origin of humans is unsettled. More than that isn't necessary for this thread.

 

[PureX]

I take no pleasure in it, nor do I feel self-righteous in any way shape or form.

Oh, I think you do. And I think you take a lot of pleasure in it. For people who are really frightened of being 'in the wrong', Like fundamentalists in very authoritarian religious sects, feeling 'in the right' can be a very powerful lure. And this need for a 'fix of righteousness' abounds in many of the posts and threads here on TOL.

They have framed the debate in such a way that anyone that questions what is going on is labeled intolerant and a bigot... they have made sure that any political opposition is basically suicide.

The questions asked are being answered. Some folks just don't like the answers they're getting because they're exposing willful ignorance (and often bigotry).

 

[Jose Fly]

God created one man and one woman.

At the fall, God put a curse on the creation. This is why there are a multitude of deformities and abnormalities in the human population.

Are all people born equally fallen?

I understand that there are problems, but people make it worst by having and anything goes definition of these things.

What does that mean? It looks like you're trying to say people have no right to refer to themselves on their own terms.