Theology Club: Total Depravity

[intojoy]

That verse does not say that the guilt of the father is shared by the son. Besides that, I have already shown how Arnold's take on that verse is in error. And you had nothing to say about what I said.

I don't feel the need to argue this.
It's not guilt that is imputed, it is spiritual death.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't feel the need to argue this.
It's not guilt that is imputed, it is spiritual death.

No, spiritual death is not imputed in this verse because that death comes as a result of a person's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

 

[intojoy]

No, spiritual death is not imputed in this verse because that death comes as a result of a person's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Well the day that Adam ate from the fruit Adam died. Spiritually.

Obviously that was the death God warned Adam of because physical death happened much later.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well the day that Adam ate from the fruit Adam died. Spiritually.

Yes, and we die spiritually when we sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

So spiritual death is not imputed to us because of Adam's sin.

 

[intojoy]

Yes, and we die spiritually when we sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

So spiritual death is not imputed to us because of Adam's sin.

Then what is imputed?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then what is imputed?

That is not the subject we are discussing because we are discussing what you said here:

It's not guilt that is imputed, it is spiritual death.

Your whole argument depends on that idea but so far you have given no evidence that it is true.

 

[intojoy]

That is not the subject we are discussing because we are discussing what you said here:







Your whole argument depends on that idea but so far you have given no evidence that it is true.

The bible says God told Adam that the day he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that Adam would surely die. But Adam did not die on that day. If you can explain what death happened to Adam on that day then you will have my evidence - the scriptures.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The bible says God told Adam that the day he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that Adam would surely die. But Adam did not die on that day. If you can explain what death happened to Adam on that day then you will have my evidence - the scriptures.

He died spiritually as a result of his own sin. And since with God there is no respect of persons (Ro.2:11) He treats all men in the same way. Hence, all men die spiritually when they sin.

That means that all men come out of the womb spiritually alive. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.

 

[intojoy]

He died spiritually as a result of his own sin. And since with God there is no respect of persons (Ro.2:11) He treats all men in the same way. Hence, all men die spiritually when they sin.



That means that all men come out of the womb spiritually alive. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.

So by one man's sin death entered the world. Isn't that the spiritual death?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So by one man's sin death entered the world. Isn't that the spiritual death?

That is correct. But that death only happens when men sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

The next verse gives us a clue as to in what way Adam was responsible:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13; DBY).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

"Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22).​

Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart. All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

That is correct. But that death only happens when men sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
​

The next verse gives us a clue as to in what way Adam was responsible:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13; DBY).
​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).
​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

"Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22).
​

Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart. All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).
​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men.

So you're claiming that if a person can live without sinning, they would not die physically, spiritually or both?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you're claiming that if a person can live without sinning, they would not die physically, spiritually or both?

Of course all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so no one will actually live a sinless life. However, theoretically, if a person lives a sinless life he will not die spiritually even though he will die physically.

In the following passage Paul says that the commandment was "ordained to life":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

It is theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by keeping the law perfectly. And that means that the idea that a person emerges from the womb with Adam's sin imputed to cannot possibly be correct.

Why?

The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). No amount of good works can bring anyone righteousness after he has a sin imputed to him. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).

So unless the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said the following then it is impossible that a person emerges from the womb with Adam's sin imputed to him:

"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Of course all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so no one will actually live a sinless life. However, theoretically, if a person lives a sinless life he will not die spiritually even though he will die physically.

In the following passage Paul says that the commandment was "ordained to life":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

It is theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by keeping the law perfectly. And that means that the idea that a person emerges from the womb with Adam's sin imputed to cannot possibly be correct.

Why?

The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). No amount of good works can bring anyone righteousness after he has a sin imputed to him. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).

So unless the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said the following then it is impossible that a person emerges from the womb with Adam's sin imputed to him:

"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

So when did physical death begin? Are you claiming Adam was created to die after a certain number of years?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So when did physical death begin? Are you claiming Adam was created to die after a certain number of years?

It began when man was denied the very thing which could keep them living--the tree of life:

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​

 

[intojoy]

Of course all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so no one will actually live a sinless life. However, theoretically, if a person lives a sinless life he will not die spiritually even though he will die physically.



In the following passage Paul says that the commandment was "ordained to life":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

It is theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by keeping the law perfectly. And that means that the idea that a person emerges from the womb with Adam's sin imputed to cannot possibly be correct.



Why?



The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). No amount of good works can bring anyone righteousness after he has a sin imputed to him. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).



So unless the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said the following then it is impossible that a person emerges from the womb with Adam's sin imputed to him:

"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

I don't agree. False premise.


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[Jerry Shugart]

I don't agree. False premise.

What is the "false premise" of which you speak?

 

[intojoy]

What is the "false premise" of which you speak?

You have a habit of taking verses and making them your own. Like simon says about singers on American Idol "making the song their own."
You made that statement Yeshua made to the YRR your own. It's not your own. It does not teach that keeping the Law of Moses was doable for man, you're being foolish.

How can you with a straight face believe that Yeshua is giving you that passage of scripture to fit your pre conceived philosophical prejudice that man could keep the law?

A simple overview of the teachings of the New Testament shows that notion of your thinking to be a direct contradiction to Paul's statements about the law. This is not even a debatable matter. Come to think of it, we are still drifting in milk thinking here. We should be discussing prophecy or love. The arguments for and against total depravity, election, predestination, these are not studies that are for the full grown adult spiritual man or woman. I'm gonna have to quit addressing these topics. If I don't I'll keep moving backwards and be more carnal than I need to be.

That's your false premise. Yeshua did not say it was possible - end of discussion.


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[Jerry Shugart]

You have a habit of taking verses and making them your own. Like simon says about singers on American Idol "making the song their own."
You made that statement Yeshua made to the YRR your own. It's not your own. It does not teach that keeping the Law of Moses was doable for man, you're being foolish.

His words were addressed to the rich young ruler. And unless the Lord Jesus was telling him something which was not true then there is only one conclusion--if a person keeps the law perfectly then He will indeed inherit eternal life:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

If the Lord Jesus was not telling the rich young ruler that if he did keep the law perfectly then he would inherit eternal life then He must have been telling him something else.

What was He telling him?

How can you with a straight face believe that Yeshua is giving you that passage of scripture to fit your pre conceived philosophical prejudice that man could keep the law?A simple overview of the teachings of the New Testament shows that notion of your thinking to be a direct contradiction to Paul's statements about the law.

You need to study what Paul wrote more closely because he too taught that, at least theoretically, a person could obtain eternal life through his deeds or works alone. Please consider what is said here:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

First, notice that this judgment of God is strictly in regard to one's deeds or works.

Then we read that those who "continue" in well doing will receive eternal life. That demonstrates beyond any doubt that at least in theory a person can obtain eternal life by continuing in well doing.

Also, Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).​

If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified."

If it is not theoretically possible for anyone to obtain eternal life by keeping the commandements then the Lord Jesus certainly would not have told anyone that they could inherit eternal life by keeping the law. But He did!

If "law" was never a way whereby a man could theoretically obtain righteousness then why would Paul say that "Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes"?:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes" (Ro.10:4).​

 

[intojoy]

There were no doers of the law


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[Jerry Shugart]

There were no doers of the law

They had the ability but not the will. Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).​

If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified."

And you did not answer my question in regard to this passage:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

If the Lord Jesus was not telling the rich young ruler that if he did keep the law perfectly then he would inherit eternal life then He must have been telling him something else.

What was He telling him?