Theology Club: Total Depravity

[Jerry Shugart]

He decided that because Walvoord was not a "weaker brother" (rom 15) that they would go ahead and enjoy the wine.

Lol!

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

You say that you disagree with what I said but you said nothing that proves that what I said is in error.

I have, but you remain unenlightened. I guess that's God's will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have, but you remain unenlightened. I guess that's God's will.

No you didn't. You just said that you disagree with what I said but you did not even attempt to point out even one error about what I said.

And then you assert that it is me who is unenlightened even though you remain silent on what I said. I will repeat what I said and if you are right and also enlightened then you have no excuse for failing to actually address what I said here:

I have already shown why all men die physically and it is not as a result of his own sin but because hhe has no access to the very thing which would allow him to live forever:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).​

From that point in time it was determined that men would die physically and no one dies physically as a result of his own sin:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).​

You can either prove that I am wrong or you can't. The fact that you do not even try speaks volumes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Arnold told me the story of his days at Dallas theological seminary when Walvoord was the Dean.

Wouldn't it be fun if you could talk Arnold into having a debate with me about the beginning of the Body of Christ and the beginning of the dispensation of grace?

We could have it on this forum at the "Coliseum" on "Battle Royale Center Ring."

Tell him he has been challenged and let us see if he has the confidence to defend his views.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

No you didn't. You just said that you disagree with what I said but you did not even attempt to point out even one error about what I said.

And then you assert that it is me who is unenlightened even though you remain silent on what I said. I will repeat what I said and if you are right and also enlightened then you have no excuse for failing to actually address what I said here:

I have already shown why all men die physically and it is not as a result of his own sin but because hhe has no access to the very thing which would allow him to live forever:

" And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken" (Gen.3:22-23).
​

From that point in time it was determined that men would die physically and no one dies physically as a result of his own sin:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).
​

You can either prove that I am wrong or you can't. The fact that you do not even try speaks volumes.

You are blind to the truth because of your adherence to the works of man, instead of the grace of God. Pray to Him for revelation.

 

[intojoy]

Wouldn't it be fun if you could talk Arnold into having a debate with me about the beginning of the Body of Christ and the beginning of the dispensation of grace?



We could have it on this forum at the "Coliseum" on "Battle Royale Center Ring."



Tell him he has been challenged and let us see if he has the confidence to defend his views.

That will never happen.
Just take a look at his itinerary.

For the past forty years he has been lecturing is several countries from week to week and month to month.
I met him in 1995 at the international bible college in Honolulu. He had been coming to the islands yearly and teaching at the school, several churches and home fellowships. The schedule would be fit example, every Monday -Wednesday a verse by verse teaching in Ezekiel at my church for five consecutive weeks, every Thursday at another locale with a different study, every Friday and 8 hour course at the school, Saturday off (unless special request made) and Sunday at different churches teaching the bible from the Jewish perspective.

That yearly five week your has been every other year since 2007 because he has been in demand in japan, Germany, England and other areas.
Because the bible teaches that Germany will be involved in the Ezekiel 38 invasion, frucht has decided to keep his yearly lectures in Germany vs Hawaii. Bummed.

You might want to look into Camp Shoshana to get a first hand debate on while attending. Everything he does is thoroughly documented as usual. I sent in to Ariel's office for a list of recommended books and study material (outside from frucht's writings) they emailed back with the Ariel ministry suggested reading materials ...it's 23 pages long hehe

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are blind to the truth because of your adherence to the works of man, instead of the grace of God. Pray to Him for revelation.

I expressed my view. You run and hide from what I said. If you have an answer to what I said then let's hear it. From all I can see at this point is that you are described in the following way by Paul:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

Your failure to be able to distinguish between verses which speak of a "physical" death from verses which speak of a "spiritual" death is the evidence that you have not received the things of the Spirit of God.

In fact, you are so confused that you will not even attempt to try to prove that what I said is in error.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That will never happen.

There is nothing about such a debate that would be a strain on his time. He will be given much time before he has to respond to my points. And since the debate is done through a computer then he can participate any where he is.

He could do it standing on his head!

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I expressed my view. You run and hide from what I said. If you have an answer to what I said then let's hear it. From all I can see at this point is that you are described in the following way by Paul:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
​

Your failure to be able to distinguish between verses which speak of a "physical" death from verses which speak of a "spiritual" death is the evidence that you have not received the things of the Spirit of God.

In fact, you are so confused that you will not even attempt to try to prove that what I said is in error.

Have a nice day. Blessings.

 

[intojoy]

There is nothing about such a debate that would be a strain on his time. He will be given much time before he has to respond to my points. And since the debate is done through a computer then he can participate any where he is.



He could do it standing on his head!

How old were you when you figured out that you couldn't sing jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How old were you when you figured out that you couldn't sing jerry

I still haven't figured it out.

 

[intojoy]

I like you. And I like saved one by grace. Both smarter than me.

Probably more mature and holier than me by far.

But God does not choose the right over the wrong or good over the bad. We're all bad there is none good, He did not choose us because we are better than each other (holier, maturer, smarter), we have become the recipients of something we did not know we even needed or wanted, we have been given full pardon from God at the great price of His Son who Himself went thru tremendous agony on the cross.

I fell from a five story building and compound fractured my leg and broke my back. There was no "shock" that numbed any pain at all, I was screaming like a stuck pig. But Yeshua did not have an ambulance on the way. He had to suffer and to die to buy my pardon. Our part in this "life" is to strive for the unity of the body and the love of one another in Christ.

God chooses not whose right over whose wrong. He chooses the humble over the prideful and He is desirous of taking prideful people and making them into humble people.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I fell from a five story building and compound fractured my leg and broke my back. There was no "shock" that numbed any pain at all, I was screaming like a stuck pig. But Yeshua did not have an ambulance on the way. He had to suffer and to die to buy my pardon. Our part in this "life" is to strive for the unity of the body and the love of one another in Christ.

Ouch!

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I like you. And I like saved one by grace. Both smarter than me.

Probably more mature and holier than me by far.

But God does not choose the right over the wrong or good over the bad. We're all bad there is none good, He did not choose us because we are better than each other (holier, maturer, smarter), we have become the recipients of something we did not know we even needed or wanted, we have been given full pardon from God at the great price of His Son who Himself went thru tremendous agony on the cross.

I fell from a five story building and compound fractured my leg and broke my back. There was no "shock" that numbed any pain at all, I was screaming like a stuck pig. But Yeshua did not have an ambulance on the way. He had to suffer and to die to buy my pardon. Our part in this "life" is to strive for the unity of the body and the love of one another in Christ.

God chooses not whose right over whose wrong. He chooses the humble over the prideful and He is desirous of taking prideful people and making them into humble people.

For some unknown reason God poured out His grace upon you and I. In my case, He could have left me drown in the Big River in Missouri when I had already given up and sunk to the bottom. I was not a believer then, but felt the presence of something outside of myself. It was ten years later before I became a Christian.

We don't know why God lets things happen, but I trust His will over mine. Sometimes these in discussions pride gets in the way. You are right to point out the humble nature we are to have about ourselves and interaction with others. I hope and pray you are fully recovered from your injuries. God bless you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For some unknown reason God poured out His grace upon you and I.

I think that we can know exactly why the Lord saved us by His grace and Paul tells us why here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I think that we can know exactly why the Lord saved us by His grace and Paul tells us why here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

Yes, in my human intellect I don't know why God would save me from physical and spiritual death, just as Intojoy probably wonders. As you have aptly quoted, we are bound to give Him thanks always, and glorify His name for what He has done, forever and ever.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, in my human intellect I don't know why God would save me from physical and spiritual death, just as Intojoy probably wonders.

I think that the answer to that is found here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I think that the answer to that is found here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
​

I believe the "world" here needs to be understood in the past, present and future sense. I was not a believer when I drowned. I was laying face down in the bottom of the Big River and had given up. As I took the river water into my lungs, I felt something warm come over me and take control. I felt enormous peace and calm, but also wonder as I crawled on all fours at the bottom of the river. I wasn't moving my legs, something or someone was moving them, at least at first. After my third lung full of water my head broke the surface, coughing up water trying to make sense of what happened. Ten years later I became a Christian.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe the "world" here needs to be understood in the past, present and future sense. I was not a believer when I drowned. I was laying face down in the bottom of the Big River and had given up. As I took the river water into my lungs, I felt something warm come over me and take control. I felt enormous peace and calm, but also wonder as I crawled on all fours at the bottom of the river. I wasn't moving my legs, something or someone was moving them, at least at first. After my third lung full of water my head broke the surface, coughing up water trying to make sense of what happened. Ten years later I became a Christian.

Sometimes being deprived of oxygen for a long period of time causes symptoms which matches yours.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Sometimes being deprived of oxygen for a long period of time causes symptoms which matches yours.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The peace and calm came when I gave up and took in my first lungful of river water. It hurt but the peace and calm stayed.

I wrote about this in my Blog. I don't talk to people about it because it's mostly met with silence or disbelief. My Blog is the third time I've written about the experience, and the one to follow, in 45 years. You don't have to believe me, it's not like I was dead or even unconscious. God knows I don't believe 99% of the people that say they've been to Heaven. But that's a subject for another time and there won't be any anecdote from me.