toldailytopic: Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictor

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 15th, 2012 09:20 AM

toldailytopic: Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictory?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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[Nick M]

One position says don't shed innocent blood. The other says don't shed innocent blood, but the guilty is ok. I don't see the issue.

 

[Tambora]

No.

 

[PureX]

toldailytopic: Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictory?

Not really.

I am not generally in favor of the death penalty. However, I do believe there are rare instances when the death penalty is warranted because the subject presents a permanent threat to the lives and well-being of everyone else. As in the case of serial killers, thrill killers, terrorists (ideological killers) or people who continue to kill even inside prison. Yet I don't feel this way because I'm "anti-life". Just the opposite.

I don't WANT anyone to be executed, and I don't believe they should be executed because they "deserve" it. I simply think there are instances where they should be executed to protect the lives of everyone else. And I suspect this is true for a lot of people who are in favor of capital punishment.

I do, however, think the term "pro-life" being used to refer to anti-abortion proponents is misleading.

 

[ebenz47037]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 15th, 2012 09:20 AM

toldailytopic: Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictory?

Nope. But, I've quit calling myself "pro-life" and calling myself "anti-abortion" because too many people have said that it's hypocritical to be for the death penalty and call myself "pro-life."

 

[Sherman]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for October 15th, 2012 09:20 AM

toldailytopic: Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictory?

No. Abortion sheds the blood of the innocent before they have had the chance to even experience life on this earth and is therefore a crime. The targets of the death penalty are not innocent. They have shed the blood of innocent people-often cruelly. An abortionist is not very different than a brutal serial murderer. The only difference is that his crimes have legal sanction.

 

[PureX]

Nope. But, I've quit calling myself "pro-life" and calling myself "anti-abortion" because too many people have said that it's hypocritical to be for the death penalty and call myself "pro-life."

It can be a bit confusing. But people should understand that being pro-death penalty does not mean one is "pro-death". Just as being pro-choice does not mean that one is "pro-abortion". We should all be careful not to over-simplify these terms. All too often such over-simplification is used to slander those who hold the counter-position.

Accuracy matters.

 

[Eeset]

Did Jesus lay down his own life only for the righteous or for the sins of all? I find the support of the sacredness of life from conception to death requires opposing the death penalty. To say this life must be terminated because...opens a path for exceptions. On a related note the Old Testament is chock full of examples where God commands the death of an individual and even whole tribes. I, however, am not God and am incapable of judging righteously.

 

[PureX]

Did Jesus lay down his own life only for the righteous or for the sins of all? I find the support of the sacredness of life from conception to death requires opposing the death penalty. To say this life must be terminated because...opens a path for exceptions. On a related note the Old Testament is chock full of examples where God commands the death of an individual and even whole tribes. I, however, am not God and am incapable of judging righteously.

But reality always seems to be presenting us with exceptions. I think it's unrealistic (and therefor dishonest) to imagine that our ideals are sacrosanct (without exception) when the world keeps showing us otherwise.

 

[Memento Mori]

Nope. But, I've quit calling myself "pro-life" and calling myself "anti-abortion" because too many people have said that it's hypocritical to be for the death penalty and call myself "pro-life."

Does this mean I get to call myself "Pro-life" for being against both?

 

[ebenz47037]

It can be a bit confusing. But people should understand that being pro-death penalty does not mean one is "pro-death". Just as being pro-choice does not mean that one is "pro-abortion". We should all be careful not to over-simplify these terms. All too often such over-simplification is used to slander those who hold the counter-position.

Accuracy matters.

I'm fine with "anti-abortion." What gets to me is when people say I'm "anti-choice." :chuckle: I believe in choice, except for when it comes to abortion. I believe that parents should have the choice of how/where to educate their children (public, private, or homeschool). Most "pro-choicers" I know don't believe that parents should have that choice. I'm probably more for choice than those who claim to be "pro-choice."

I like to ask "pro-choicers" what choice are they for. Most of them cannot answer without choking or getting mad.

 

[PureX]

I'm fine with "anti-abortion."

Me too. I don't think this term implies anything bad about anyone.

What gets to me is when people say I'm "anti-choice." :chuckle: I believe in choice, except for when it comes to abortion. I believe that parents should have the choice of how/where to educate their children (public, private, or homeschool). Most "pro-choicers" I know don't believe that parents should have that choice. I'm probably more for choice than those who claim to be "pro-choice."

Sure, but you ARE "anti-choice" regarding this specific issue. So there's nothing wrong with someone saying so; as you say so, yourself.

I like to ask "pro-choicers" what choice are they for. Most of them cannot answer without choking or getting mad.

Yup, just like the anti-abortion people who are at a loss for words when asked if they would force a woman impregnated from a rape by her father or brother to have his baby. Or how they would choose to punish her if she had an abortion.

This is a difficult subject. The pro-choice people have a very good argument when they claim that the anti-abortion people do not have the right to force their moral opinions on the lives and bodies of other women. But the anti-abortion people have a very good argument when they say that we should respect ALL human lives, even those still in the process of formation.

I think we should respect both arguments, AND the people who hold them. Then work together to try and make abortion unnecessary, instead of illegal.

 

[Town Heretic]

Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictory?

Depends on why you support either. So no, not inherently.

 

[This Charming Manc]

I see greater consistency in a stance which is consistently pro life.

I am not sure which Christian theology declares the unborn as innocent.

Worthy of life yes, innocent no.

 

[IMJerusha]

No. I don't believe these things are contradictory. Abortion is murder; the taking of life which God prohibits in Exodus 20:13.

Capital punishment is the administration of government authority which is subject to the ultimate authority, God. Romans 13:1-4 states "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."
It is interesting to note from Luke 23:39-43, that submission to authority, confession and repentance plays a key role, not in the dispensing of the death penalty, but rather with the eternal location of the criminal.

 

[Rusha]

Is support of the Pro Life position AND the death penalty contradictory?

No ... it's not. However, to avoid the default argument of borts, I refer to myself as anti-abortion or pro-INNOCENT-life.

Unlike those who commit death penalty offenses, the unborn have done nothing worthy of death ...

 

[Alate_One]

One position says don't shed innocent blood. The other says don't shed innocent blood, but the guilty is ok. I don't see the issue.

You assume that the unborn are innocent and the convicted murderers are guilty.

Since there are plenty of instances of innocent people being convicted of crimes they did not commit, assuming the death penalty only targets the guilty.

There's also this:

Psalm 50:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

I'm not really in favor of the death penalty, less from a moral perspective, than the fact that it's actually more expensive than holding someone in prison for life.

I would see a consistent "pro-life stance" this as not only being against the death penalty, but anything that would cause premature death to people (especially through no fault of their own).

This would include preventing death from lack of health insurance, ensuring people across the world have sufficient good quality food to eat. The latter might include making birth control available to those that want it, for free. Especially being against war, exceptions only in instances where it is intended to save lives.

If you are really interested in preserving human life, I think you should be in favor of preserving as much of it as you can, without regard to guilt or innocence.

Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but the guilty.

Luke 5:32 I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

 

[Thunder's Muse]

For me, they do contradict.

 

[Nick M]

You assume that the unborn are innocent

Shut up you hell bound heathen. :loser: I will deconstruct your idiot post after I am finished grilling my chicken.

 

[fool]

You assume that the unborn are innocent

Yeah, I guess we do since we're pretty sure where they are at all times and if they left and came back it would leave a mark.

and the convicted murderers are guilty.

We're talking in principle here, I'll agree that our system has holes so lets stick to the caught-red-handed types like the bat man shooter.

Since there are plenty of instances of innocent people being convicted of crimes they did not commit, assuming the death penalty only targets the guilty.

Right, let's just stick with the slam dunk guilty and go from there.

There's also this:

Psalm 50:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Good reason not to take that book to serious.

I'm not really in favor of the death penalty, less from a moral perspective, than the fact that it's actually more expensive than holding someone in prison for life.

So morals are less important than economics?
What if he gets out and kills again?

I would see a consistent "pro-life stance" this as not only being against the death penalty, but anything that would cause premature death to people (especially through no fault of their own).

You're conflating abortion with "take care of everyone from cradle to grave" socialism.

This would include preventing death from lack of health insurance,

Nobody dies from lack of health insurance. That's a liberal myth.
Any Doctor will be more than happy to help you for cash.

ensuring people across the world have sufficient good quality food to eat.

Back to that socialism again, why is the whole world my problem?

The latter might include making birth control available to those that want it, for free.

They can't afford a condom?
Really?
I have to buy the whole world condoms now?
They can't get their own condoms?

Especially being against war, exceptions only in instances where it is intended to save lives.

That's the point of wars, with a heavy favor towards saving the lives of your own people.
You don't get that do you?

If you are really interested in preserving human life, I think you should be in favor of preserving as much of it as you can, without regard to guilt or innocence.

Okay, so according to you we should give people who murder us health insurance, food and condoms.
Should we rent them a whore as well?

Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but the guilty.

Luke 5:32 I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

You keep quoting that book.
I don't think it means what you think it means.