ECT To all who say God doesn't impute Adam's sin to us
- Thread starter musterion
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I had a neighbor once who's body registered no pain both prior to and during childbirth.
Everyone believed that that was because she was such a sweet, kind, and gentle soul with all people. She was that much. I can still recall the warmth of her presence. Her very being smiled.
She was a really sweet person.
Still, I attribute her painlessness to something more along the line of - reported cases of people who's bodies pose a real danger to themselves because their bodies do not register pain.
Everyone believed that that was because she was such a sweet, kind, and gentle soul with all people. She was that much. I can still recall the warmth of her presence. Her very being smiled.
She was a really sweet person.
Still, I attribute her painlessness to something more along the line of - reported cases of people who's bodies pose a real danger to themselves because their bodies do not register pain.
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Since God, as a rule, does not show partiality except for His purposes usually to persuade, I would agree.
WonderfulLordJesus
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It would be difficult to make the case a woman giving birth hasn't reached an age or place of accountability, however you want to put it. Yes, Christ died for the sins of the world, but, if Adam's sin is imputed to a child, this would mean the unbelieving, unable to believe, child would go to hell, were he or she to die. Of course, this isn't true, since David stated he would see his dead child in eternity. So, at the same time, it would be difficult to make the case guilt of sin, Adam's sin, is judicially imputed to any child. It would seem there's a difference between sin being imputed than being born in a fallen world, or babies would be damned.
2 Samuel 12
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Sin also involves transgression (Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4), and there's the general principle the son does not bear the sin of the father (Ezekiel 18:20). Lastly, you have to separate the consequences of sin that can be somebody else's sin, shared by the innocent of that sin in the world, from guilt for that sin. The world has never been fair this way, the curse shared by all.
I would then say the world inherits the curse of sin, that all are going to sin at some point, should they live, but that there is no such thing as eternal consequences for Adam's sin, his sin being imputed to individuals. This goes against scripture examples already mentioned.
2 Samuel 12
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Sin also involves transgression (Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4), and there's the general principle the son does not bear the sin of the father (Ezekiel 18:20). Lastly, you have to separate the consequences of sin that can be somebody else's sin, shared by the innocent of that sin in the world, from guilt for that sin. The world has never been fair this way, the curse shared by all.
I would then say the world inherits the curse of sin, that all are going to sin at some point, should they live, but that there is no such thing as eternal consequences for Adam's sin, his sin being imputed to individuals. This goes against scripture examples already mentioned.
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Why not explain what you believe the penalty Adam's sin was which was passed on to his progeny?
Numbers 14:18 KJV -
WonderfulLordJesus
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Was waiting for such to come up, a misapplication of scripture. Again, the consequences of one sin of Adam has been inherited by all generations since, most prominently in death. This isn't the subject. The consequences of what nations do and the like is not imputation of sin to the individual. Scripture does not contradict scripture. You're guilty of your own sin, not Adam's, should even be more concerned about that, than what Adam and Eve did thousands of years ago. Nobody is going to be brought to the bar of God's justice, accused of eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden. If so, again, individuals inherit judicial guilt of sin, and babies go to hell. Get real. Study scripture for what is actually said and in context. Try reading whole chapters of scripture and seeking harmony from the entire Bible. When you see such as Numbers 14:18 and are seeing it contradicts other scripture, other scripture plainly saying something different than your assertions, then you are not understanding Numbers 14:18 properly. It's the biggest mistake of proper Bible exegesis, lifting a verse or verses, sometimes even one word, out of context, leading to false doctrines. Whole denominations are built around such errors.
Careful, there; that passage was referring to corporate Israel, under their Law Covenant. See Daniel's prayer, in Daniel 9, for example.
Daniel was a prime example of how that curse worked - by the time he was born, Israel had long been in apostasy. Thus his prayer as one guilty with his nation - in accordance with the Law.
And yet, guess what even that had prefigured - the Grace of Christ for that nation in His death in their stead.
Its why all who assert what they do - that Romans 11:25-27 is not future - are clearly off-base.
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Did notice the word "iniquity" and do you know what it is and how it is meant to be understood that everyone is infected to some degree, depending upon the father? It is Not the same iniquity, a one size fits all kind of thing going on in this 'passing on'..
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visiting upon is not a curse but a continuum of a disposition, propensities toward certain things carried in the genes. They are NOT etched in stone but, by relationship with God, are they intended by Him to be overcome. "He who overcomes , I will . . . . give to eat of the tree of life".
WonderfulLordJesus
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People share national guilt of wars, innocents murdered. It's 2016. As a white person, I've never owned a slave, have absolutely nothing against any different ethnic group. Lord willing, I'd have been an abolitionist in the Civil War era, as slavery was an evil. But still, to this day, some black people are going to see me with the eyes of sharing the slavers' guilt, or being discriminatory, when I'm not, and vice versa, though we're generations removed from the evil of slavery I had nothing to do with, can never be accused of owning a slave. And I could still get knocked on the head, or worse, for somebody else's sin, share in any national guilt whatsoever I had nothing to do with, neither even slightly approved of, if the Lord allows. Corporate sin can have long consequences, even once the perpetrators are long gone.
Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
WonderfulLordJesus
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I suppose because I don't feel the need to repeat myself, which, granted, goes against message board tradition. There is an alternative. You could actually read what was already said. A foreign concept here, but maybe give it a try? Just once?
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Understand I am not looking for any kind of argument except to clarify that which was passed on from the beginning that remains with us because Adam didn't deal with it so that we still have to, the universal suffering because of the penalty for his transgression, notwithstanding.
musterion
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So you're saying Adam's sin is not imputed but women still pay the penalty for Eve's sin.
WonderfulLordJesus
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Yes, just pointing out that I thought I'd addressed the difference between being judicially imputed somebody else's sin and the consequences of the curse, suffering from the curse not being personally punished for somebody else's sin. Again, it's, to my mind, like sharing in the consequences of national wrong doing you may even vociferously protest. Nor does the Bible ever state that ultimate justice is executed, is to be expected, in this age, rather that there's the judgment to come, in eternity. This world, where Satan has limited dominion, is not fair, but it's in God's wisdom He works His plan so, I would imagine things in eternity, regarding the likes of fallen angels, we aren't privy to.
There's a difference between people wondering if something is fair, and God punishing anybody for somebody else's sin, the righteousness and justice of Almighty and Sovereign God not ours to doubt, at least something I see as a fool's errand of the flesh and not of faith that loves and trusts the Lord absolutely, faith even more authentic when we believe, despite lack of understanding. There is the needed awareness of who's the creature and Who's the Creator, that nobody of a few decades stumbling around in the flesh has any qualifications to speak against Holy, Eternal God. Personally, I'd prefer to leave that fairness conversation to people who suffer Satanic misgivings and are scripturally challenged, which are not of any faith. Any jerk can believe what they want to and what they understand, but this isn't the material Job was made of, better material than all his foolish friends, with their bad advice and twisted theology.
Proverbs 3
1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Job 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?