Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Again, the rapture has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus' return to the earth. Why are you not able to understand that?
ECT Those of the Body of Christ Will Reign on the Earth With Christ
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Again, the rapture has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus' return to the earth. Why are you not able to understand that?
Lol, that's the same question you should be asking of yourself.
He's not only answered your silly question, but given you the actual; right answer - but you do not understand why the Mystery.
Where you are concerned, there is no point in allowing the passages to answer such questions; is there?
Twist that one passage away, Jerry; for your failure to look at this issue through, and in light of, the Mystery.
Oh, wait, now you want me to explain it to you, lol - what a character.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course I never expected that you would back up what you say by using the Scriptures. I only wanted others to know that the only relationship you have with the Scriptures is to run and hide from them.
That is why you refuse to even attempt to explain why we should not believe what Paul wrote here:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
This passage is speaking of being in the "presence" of the Lord Jesus when those in the BOC meets Him in the air and therefore when it speaks of those in the BOC being with Him for ever it is His "presence" which is in view.
But according to your view those in the BOC will no longer be in His presence when He returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom.
As usual, you give no evidence from the Scriptures to support your assertion. All you do is to deny the truth of what is said at 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Maybe we will be stacked on top of each other on the temple mount. Think I'll look for scripture indicating a huge heap of saints will rule with Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What do you think Paul means when He says the following in "bold"?:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Obviously it means this,
John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So according to this where He is they will be there also. They will all be together in the same place. So let us look at this verse again:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
According to you when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth then those who are with Him at the rapture will also be together with Him at the same place, the earth.
Then why do you think that some believe that the BOC will be in heaven at the same time that the Lord Jesus is on the earth. That idea cannot be reconciled with what the Lord said here:
"that where I am, there ye may be also."
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
What of some who claim, for whatever odd reason, the Lord can't rule from heaven, have primary residence there? Did the British sovereign live in Australia? Does the Holy Spirit have to be physically present in some geography? Do you not think God could turn all the unregenerates on earth to pumpkins, without rising from His throne in heaven?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Who knows why? But do you agree that it makes no sense for someone to assert that the following verse can be reconciled with the idea that those in the BOC who will be raptured will not be with the Lord Jesus when He returns to the earth?:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
I don't know who's saying there won't be saints with the Lord at His second coming,
Jude1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Then again, this has nothing to do with the fact the Lord and saints could go back to heaven, rule from heaven. The OT has those in the flesh administering Israel, a prince begetting children in Ezekiel. I don't even know what this notion is immortal beings, who could "walk" through doors, are earth bound. This seems a very primitive view of cosmic realities that transcend the flesh.
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
People who can appear can also disappear, go somewhere else. Whatever the case, the Lord prepares a place in heaven for saints to dwell. His statement and promise. I can see no notion said saints will then leave that dwelling for a thousand years, as if spend a weekend in heaven. That's silly. That's all.
Incidentally, those armies of heaven? Armies generally go home, after a campaign somewhere.
whitestone
Well-known member
All these prophesies are fore told in scripture,one event is then tied to the other in their order. As an (example) in Revelation chapter 13 it is written that some will receive the mark and worship the image of the beast. So if they do worship the image or receive the mark or the number of his name they cannot UNTIL THE TWO HORNED BEAST COMES.,,Again the two horned beast cannot come until the ten horns and the little horn are present,they cannot come until the 7th head ect(SCRIPTURE GIVES THE ORDER OF THESE EVENTS).
But this is an example of the same, that is if it is written in the scriptures that there is an rapture(there is) then the prophecies leading up to it's fulfillment must be fulfilled in their order before the rapture can be fulfilled. That is if those who are caught up cannot prevent those who are beheaded for their testimony of Christ then first they must finish the fulfillment of both their testimony and their martyrdom.
Again, tomorrow if in Iraq they(a Christian) are led out to the outskirts of town and given the ultimatum to either confess Allah as the true God and deny that Jesus is the Messiah or die then if they do in fact die for their testimony (THE RAPTURE CANNOT BE FULFILLED BEFORE THEY FULFILL THE THINGS WRITTEN OF THEM).
If then any of the prophecies are miss-placed in their exact and correct order of fulfillment it will cause friction with the things written in the other scripture's. There is a very good example of this that is one denomination says "this,this and this were fulfilled in a.d.70",yet another says "no,this,this and this will be fulfilled in the future". But any way it is looked upon one group is following a list of arrangements of prophecy fulfillment's ect.,and the others are following theirs.
Both of these cannot be true at the same time and they do and will stand out when compared to the scriptures. One will say "the mark has been here for ever!",although in the Revelation it is written that "one is" speaking of the 6th head. So in that day the 7th had not yet risen,so the 10 horns had not yet come,nor the little horn,nor the two horned beast,nor the image,nor the mark because they must follow the correct order given in scripture.
So in the same the "rapture"(nor the end of this disp.) can (NOT) unfold/be fulfilled until the prophecies that are given in scripture to be fulfilled (prior to) the rapture are. So Paul sets them in their order when he explains that the rapture cannot "prevent" the first Resurrection of the dead in Christ,so first they must be martyred,then those who remain can be caught up.
In the same Jesus comes, and the dead in Christ are raised in the first Resurrection and because it is said they died "for his names sake",then they first must fulfill "dieing for his names sake". So this being true in scripture Christ cannot come until every prophecy fore told in scripture to be fulfilled before his coming is fulfilled.
But then what are all the things said to be fulfilled before his coming? One is that they, the Jews,will first say "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" as we have discussed. This though I have noted in other discussions could be "a very controversial subject" that is as well as Jesus did say that he would not come until they say "blessed is he that,ect.",,,,we must also remember that it is said "I come in my fathers name and you receive me not,if another come in his own name you will receive him" (John 5:43 KJV)
So in scripture the Jews said (and still say) "you are not the Christ and I will not say you are blessed". And so if it is scriptural that this man of sin will in that day come and say that he is in fact God and many will be deceived,then in fact they will say to the man of sin "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the lord" to another who comes in his own name and fulfill what is written.
They will then as these prophecies unfold realize that in fact Jesus is the Messiah that was prophesied to come and the house of Israel will then acknowledge that Jesus of Nazareth is and always was the Messiah and say to him "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".
But again it is written that once tasting the grace of God if they turn from it there is no more salvation to those who trod underfoot the blood of the cross. So if the Jew first say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord and there then is no more sacrifice and the scripture is then broken in that they confessed Christ(converted to Christian) and then received the false Messiah they await.
This being spoken of in prophecy cannot be fulfilled in any other order than given in scripture. If the house of Jacob confesses Jesus as the Messiah and then are deceived by the man of sin then if there is no more salvation unto them and they cannot dwell in the land promised to them in scripture then the scripture is broken and cannot be fulfilled.
So seeing that in scripture they are both deceived and their hearts are turned unto the Lord the deception (must come first). After the deception then their hearts will be turned and they will then dwell in the land and the prophecies concerning the kingdom on earth will unfold.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Those within the Neo-MAD camp on this forum say that the members of the BOC will not reign on the earth with the Lord Jesus.
Do you agree that it makes no sense for someone to assert that the following verse can be reconciled with the idea that those in the BOC who will be raptured will not be with the Lord Jesus when He returns to the earth?:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
I personally never believe in making entire doctrines from many single verses or just words in some verse. Don't believe in reading doctrines into verses that aren't there. All of scripture is context. The seminary world agrees with this. People who make a muck of interpretation get hung up on words and fragments of scripture, when the whole of scripture is teaching something else. The verse says nothing about being in the Lord's presence every minute, for example, something I not only find unlikely but absurd. We can imagine heaven is a very big place, with things to do, this world a shadow. That the Lord is standing there with each in the multitudes, at all times, makes no sense.
Another example, there is nothing in scripture that states every saint since the beginning of time is going to accompany the Lord to the battle of Armageddon. Scripture simply states a multitude, like ten thousands. There's not doctrine of heaven being stripped of all saints. One can make such a speculation, but that's all it is. If this were true, even, you'd think ten thousands would be a misleading lowball number.
As for these MAD people, it's some new sort of controversy in my experience. I've not seen this, until recent years, so really don't have a horse in that race. I have no interest in every raging controversy that comes down the pike, am fine with fundamental Christian faith of scripture and of the ages. I know it's some controversy here, but of no interest to me.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, the events surrounding the rapture was a mystery truth not revealed in the OT. Paul wrote:
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).
There were no prophecies which foretold of the rapture. All of the OT prophecies will be searched in vain for any event where living saints will put on immortal bodies when meeting the Lord in the air.
In fact, James makes it known that the Lord Jesus' appearance at the rapture can happen at any moment:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:
"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).
The return of the Lord Jesus to the earth cannot be described as being imminent because certain events must happen before that can occur:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:15-16,30).
The rapture and the resurrection which is associated with it can happen at any time. On the other hand, the resurrection spoken of here cannot happen until the last day:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).
So the Scriptures reveal two different resurrections of the just, one which is foretold in the OT and another which was a mystery truth, not found in the OT.
One can take place at any moment and another one which cannot happen until the last day which will precede the beginning of the kingdom age.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then I am curious why you even posted on this thread since the title of the thread is:
Those in the Body of Christ Will Reign on the Earth With Christ
If its no interest to you then why in the world would you post on this thread?
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
I posted about the body of Christ and the reign, not speaking to the MAD controversy. You mentioned that, not me. I wasn't aware you're a censor, that I needed your permission to post in the first place. Should I have cleared my activities with you?
Truth is, you're a bore, inventing doctrines and short of substance. I'll leave you to your precious thread and incredible error.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
whitestone
Well-known member
I was of the mind from the way you word they,them,us,ect. that another portion of these prophecies had come to mind but it I think is not the case.
I mean no disrespect in saying this to you. I have in fact quite enjoyed speaking with you on these matter's,you seem polite and reasonable. I suppose it better that I not post any further for if I do it will distract from your o.p. so I will not.
This is not as if the many scriptures and facts you state are incorrect. And they very well are true and to those whom they apply,they will be fulfilled. It is the desire when contemplating these end time event's to imagine in our minds being a part of the rapture. Yet in diligent study it will reveal that in fact the vast majority of those present today will find they should have done their exegesis on the martyrdom in the said same prophecies,that is they will be raised from the grave in the first Resurrection not raptured. That is an Israel is in our midst since 1948,,,
Those who suffer with Him shall reign with Him"
The implication then is if you don't you will not.
We are all called to that high calling.To be in the Bride of Christ.
To be one with him,in mind ,objective and commitment,
And while every true born child of God is called to that high calling,by the scriptures not all will respond or be willing.
Even as John 3 16 is a call to the whole world to repent and believe on the Lord Jess Christmas, we know by the scriptures all will not do so.
We are called to" be kings and priests unto God"
But to be a priest unto God is to put off the old man and put one Christ.to wash ones feet and hands before you enter the Holy place where you cannot walk and work by the natural eye.but with faith. Serving not yourself but God.in he blessing of God's people and in intecesion.
The implication then is if you don't you will not.
We are all called to that high calling.To be in the Bride of Christ.
To be one with him,in mind ,objective and commitment,
And while every true born child of God is called to that high calling,by the scriptures not all will respond or be willing.
Even as John 3 16 is a call to the whole world to repent and believe on the Lord Jess Christmas, we know by the scriptures all will not do so.
We are called to" be kings and priests unto God"
But to be a priest unto God is to put off the old man and put one Christ.to wash ones feet and hands before you enter the Holy place where you cannot walk and work by the natural eye.but with faith. Serving not yourself but God.in he blessing of God's people and in intecesion.