ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

[TFTn5280]

Do you think he was emotionally wrought saying that?

Or was he like the farmer with the fence post ah-whackin' his mule a lick???

Jes' a tryin' t'gitter aah 'tention...

Arsenios

Guess we'll never know

I heard a really good argument one time for me geneto meaning "hell no!" I don't 'spose Paul ever got emotional either.


EDIT: BTW, it had to do with Athanasius' belief that death and hell were "unbecoming."

 

[TFTn5280]

“Kenosis: Do you think the Son sort of subjected himself to this thing called KENOSIS?? He IS God, and he AS God became fallen man, taking on fallen man's fallen human nature upon himself, and raised this fallen human nature through his incarnation and death upon the Cross. He IS BOTH God and man IN his incarnation, and so in order that he become human, he emptied himself of God in his human nature, while still being God in his Divine Nature. The PERSON of Jesus Christ the Logos CAN do this, and the Greek word for Person is Hypostasis, because it is the Person who stands under the NATURE which is the POSSESSION of the person standing under it.

“Person is fundamental to nature, and not vice versa in the Christian Faith's understanding of man (anthropos). Adam's human nature FELL through the action of the Adamic Hypostasis. His SIN destroyed the LIFE in his nature as originally given by God. And IN the Body of Christ we REGAIN that Nature originally given to us in the Garden. And indeed, we surpass it ~ because Christ IS God!”

I beg that you read these words slowly, absorb them, resonate upon them. BTW, they’re from Arsenios’ own pen. On this we can agree! The distinctions are essential to a right understanding of who this Christ Jesus was and is and what he accomplished both in his divinity and his humanity. There is no problem with Christ Jesus taking sin as a human, while yet being God as well. [Paul in II Corinthians 5 tells us that is exactly what he did, becoming sin nature/reality (v 21) in the incarnation and throughout his life, beating it back with blows, sinning not though tempted; and he took that corruptible human nature/reality to the cross, to his death. In his resurrection, sin ~ human nature, death, the devil, all the tyrants ~ were defeated, whereby he rose victorious, Glorified in incorruptible humanity, that humanity might receive his new incorruptible human nature, via the gift of the Holy Spirit, wherein we might fight back the old man/nature/reality in accordance with the new; that being Christ in us, the hope of Glory, the righteousness of God in him. But I digress.]

Did he not extend his hand and touch the demonic leper without himself contracting leprosy? Christ Jesus can touch sin; he can even heal it, just as God in Christ Jesus healed the leper; for Christ is BOTH God and man!

 

[LAL359]

The problem with "feeling good" as an "affirmation" of one's Christian walk is that the Cross-Walk wherein we follow Christ is not at all about "feeling good" but is instead exactly the opposite...

We are not instructed to fill a beautiful punch bowl with lovely and sweet liquid refreshment for all to drink of freely, only to discover that someone has dropped some dog droppings into it causing it to need to be discarded... We are discipled to take up suffering unto death daily, and in that walk which follows Christ, not only do dog-droppings in the punch-bowl not matter a whit, but neither does the punch bowl nor its sweet refreshment which soon turns bitter indeed...

I keep remembering Peter, warming himself at the fires of the murderers of our Lord, denying Christ thrice... Had he embraced the cold and scorned the fire, and been suffering wretchedly in body, in joy and thanksgiving, he would not have denied his Lord... That was to come later... All the Disciples were weak at that point... Save the Beloved John...

I mean, if feeling good is good in one's Christian walk, then what is one to do when one is feeling NOT-good? IF we are to follow Christ, then we are to deny self, and self denial is NOT feeling good, because denial of self is an act of violence upon the self and it feels anything BUT good...

Arsenios

With all due respect Arseinios I disagree! I have read and appreciate your posts and respect your wisdom however, on this issue I think you are only partially correct. If I misrepresented myself then I would like to correct that. I agree that we cannot be totally dependent on "feeling good" or "good feelings" in life. We would find ourselves in a heasp of trouble. "Feelings" good or bad in and of themselves are not sustainable. The JOY Christ gives us does sustain us in all of life's circumstances especially the suffocatingly painful times. Joy as i understand it is a state of mind, a settled state of contentment, cofidence and hope. Sometimes this includes happiness and sometimes is it simply an abiding assurance in all of life's ups and downs that God is in control.And yes Christ does ask us to deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily and no that doesn't feel good. But he also created the universe and provides us with his artistry on a daily basis in sunrises, sunsets, stars, and the first blooms of Spring. He gave us the embrace of our little grandchildren, the news that the tu!mor is gone etc etc etc These are emotion provoking moments, feel good moments. The Christian walk too has those good feelings that are NOT bad. It does not define us, it is simply a part, a part that I believe is a gift from God himself the creator of our emotional self. As a Christian I am not called to a somber existence I am called to trust and obey and SOMETIMES that is HAPPY!

 

[Arsenios]

“Kenosis: Do you think the Son sort of subjected himself to this thing called KENOSIS?? He IS God, and he AS God became fallen man, taking on fallen man's fallen human nature upon himself, and raised this fallen human nature through his incarnation and death upon the Cross. He IS BOTH God and man IN his incarnation, and so in order that he become human, he emptied himself of God in his human nature, while still being God in his Divine Nature. The PERSON of Jesus Christ the Logos CAN do this, and the Greek word for Person is Hypostasis, because it is the Person who stands under the NATURE which is the POSSESSION of the person standing under it.

“Person is fundamental to nature, and not vice versa in the Christian Faith's understanding of man (anthropos). Adam's human nature FELL through the action of the Adamic Hypostasis. His SIN destroyed the LIFE in his nature as originally given by God. And IN the Body of Christ we REGAIN that Nature originally given to us in the Garden. And indeed, we surpass it ~ because Christ IS God!”

I beg that you read these words slowly, absorb them, resonate upon them. BTW, they’re from Arsenios’ own pen. On this we can agree! The distinctions are essential to a right understanding of who this Christ Jesus was and is and what he accomplished both in his divinity and his humanity.

Ya gotta be careful, because ya keep writing like that and y'er a gonna end up Orthodox...

There is no problem with Christ Jesus taking sin as a human, while yet being God as well. [Paul in II Corinthians 5 tells us that is exactly what he did, becoming sin nature/reality (v 21) in the incarnation and throughout his life, beating it back with blows, sinning not though tempted; and he took that corruptible human nature/reality to the cross, to his death. In his resurrection, sin ~ human nature, death, the devil, all the tyrants ~ were defeated, whereby he rose victorious, Glorified in incorruptible humanity, that humanity might receive his new incorruptible human nature, via the gift of the Holy Spirit, wherein we might fight back the old man/nature/reality in accordance with the new; that being Christ in us, the hope of Glory, the righteousness of God in him. But I digress.

Well, you escaped becoming Orthodox! When Scripture records that he "became sin" for our sakes, the expression used is the same as that used in the LXX Old Testament describing the Temple sacrifices, where the animal being sacrificed "became sin" for those for whom it was sacrificed... Hence a better translation might be, instead of "became sin" for our sake, we could translate it "He became a sin offering for our sake..." Because He offered himself as a living sacrifice to His Father for the sake of all our sins... Spotless and pure without blemish or fault... He NEVER became sin, nor did He take on ANY sin... He took on our fallen human nature and by never having communion with sin He overcame the power of death in Himself, in His Own Body, into which we are BAPTIZED into His Death, and resurrected into His Life, becoming a member of His Body...

Did he not extend his hand and touch the demonic leper without himself contracting leprosy? Christ Jesus can touch sin; he can even heal it, just as God in Christ Jesus healed the leper; for Christ is BOTH God and man!

His disciples who are mature in the Faith can do the same... In Christ those perfected in the Faith can take on any sin and overcome it in their own mortified flesh...

They are called Saints...

The rest of us, who do not have such maturity in the Faith of Christ, are stuck in still working to overcome our own sins, and much of that entails avoiding even the appearance of sin...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

With all due respect Arseinios I disagree! I have read and appreciate your posts and respect your wisdom however, on this issue I think you are only partially correct. If I misrepresented myself then I would like to correct that. I agree that we cannot be totally dependent on "feeling good" or "good feelings" in life. We would find ourselves in a heasp of trouble. "Feelings" good or bad in and of themselves are not sustainable. The JOY Christ gives us does sustain us in all of life's circumstances especially the suffocatingly painful times. Joy as i understand it is a state of mind, a settled state of contentment, cofidence and hope. Sometimes this includes happiness and sometimes is it simply an abiding assurance in all of life's ups and downs that God is in control.And yes Christ does ask us to deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily and no that doesn't feel good. But he also created the universe and provides us with his artistry on a daily basis in sunrises, sunsets, stars, and the first blooms of Spring. He gave us the embrace of our little grandchildren, the news that the tu!mor is gone etc etc etc These are emotion provoking moments, feel good moments. The Christian walk too has those good feelings that are NOT bad. It does not define us, it is simply a part, a part that I believe is a gift from God himself the creator of our emotional self. As a Christian I am not called to a somber existence I am called to trust and obey and SOMETIMES that is HAPPY!

:up:

A.

 

[TFTn5280]

Well, you escaped becoming Orthodox!

Whew! Close call

When Scripture records that he "became sin" for our sakes, the expression used is the same as that used in the LXX Old Testament describing the Temple sacrifices, where the animal being sacrificed "became sin" for those for whom it was sacrificed... Hence a better translation might be, instead of "became sin" for our sake, we could translate it "He became a sin offering for our sake..." Because He offered himself as a living sacrifice to His Father for the sake of all our sins... Spotless and pure without blemish or fault...

Yes. My concern is that we not limit atonement to one aspect at the expense of another. There is indeed an expiatory nature to atonement, Christ becoming the sin offering on our behalf and in our stead. At the same time he is also the scape goat, he the one the sins of the world were laid upon who carried our sin to the far country, never again to confront them. He of course also is the priest, the one who mediates those offerings to the Father on our behalf.

There are other aspects of atonement as well, aspects that overlap each other but are distinct in themselves, but we'll save that for another discussion.

He NEVER became sin,

I think I understand you and I think based upon that understanding I agree. I get very disturbed this time of year when I hear preachers elaborate and build upon his death, those agonizing hours on the cross when Christ became sin for us that he might bear the wrath of God, he dying in estrangement (the guilt we should feel!). Blah, blah, blah. I actually get angry when I hear this. Why are preachers so much better at describing his death than they are his resurrection? It's morbid ... not to mention schizophrenic. The rip it tears in God is satanic ~ Is he not Triune? There can be NO forsakenness in the midst of that union! And the person of Jesus is split apart ~ Was he not God hanging on the cross as well? Don't tell me God can't look upon sin and that he forsook his Son. Where was God IN the Son at this time? Now tell me, how do we uphold Trinity and Hypostatic Union with our very next breath? THE most important days of creation and Satan stabs a lie right in the heart of it. We with our pious faces eat it up. I digress.

When I say he became sin, I mean whatever that part of humanity that is our nature, that is what he became. If we are fallen, he was fallen; if we have a sinful nature he had a sinful nature, this that he might wage war against those things that take us down, he being the one, not we, who was without sin, in that he overcame it.

nor did He take on ANY sin...

I've got to think about this one, work it out a little more in my noggin. Think with me. He was the scape goat too, you know.

He took on our fallen human nature and by never having communion with sin He overcame the power of death in Himself, in His Own Body, into which we are BAPTIZED into His Death, and resurrected into His Life, becoming a member of His Body...

You better watch it, brother. You're startin' to sound like a Reformer...

His disciples who are mature in the Faith can do the same... In Christ those perfected in the Faith can take on any sin and overcome it in their own mortified flesh...

Yes, but only in his power over it.

 

[TFTn5280]

See above

 

[TFTn5280]

"My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"

This is the most misunderstood statement in Scripture, spoken in the Church more often and with greater passion than any sharing of the Gospel the world will ever hear, Christmas and Easter being the two times a year that sinners and nominals alike will grace the doors of a Church.

What does this saying mean if not that God the Father was forsaking his Son at the cross of Christ, he not being able to look upon the sin of the world in the becoming of sin in Christ?

By the time a Jewish boy had reached the age of thirteen, he had to have memorized the entire Book of the Psalms for his celebration of bar mitzvah. How was he taught those psalms? By way of jingles. If I say to you, "I am Tom Bodet of Motel 6 and we'll..." What does your mind do automatically? It finishes the jingle with, "leave the lights on for you." Or if "You deserve a break today..." well "at McDonald's" of course. This is how the rabbis taught young boys to memorize the Psalms. They memorized the Psalms by way of jingles, the opening words of each psalm kick-starting the memorization of the rest of the psalm in their minds.

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" are the opening words of the 22nd Psalm. I can't tell you how many times throughout my life I have heard these words uttered, followed by their English translation (Well actually I can, about 54 times). But I can tell you unequivocally that I have not once heard a sermon preached on the remainder of that psalm. Does anyone know what it says?

King David was a chronic whiner. Every time he turned around he was begging God for one thing or another. "Smite this enemy"; "Deliver me from that." Psalm 22 starts out this way. This time however the complaint was against God himself: "Why have you forsaken me?" If however we had memorized in that Psalm the rest of the story, we would realize as well that David realized in the midst of it that God indeed had not forsaken him. That indeed there was a great and mighty victory in store; a great reconciliation was at hand.

Did David believe this (prohetic) utterance? Certainly he did; for in his very next psalm he was proclaiming "Yea, though I walk through the valley..." Ah, you know that jingle, don't you?

You see, the priests and rabbis who were standing at the foot of the cross, with baited breaths anticipating Christ's last, knew them too; for they had been teaching them by memory to young boys throughout their ministries, and by remembrance the memorization of them themselves by their thirteenth birthday.

God was NOT forsaking Jesus at the Cross! Instead the Father was united there with him in the Holy Spirit in the passion of the Son.

Jesus, in the employment of a jingle, had declared to those priests and rabbis and every Jewish man in the range of his voice, in the form of a jingle, of that great and mighty victory. Moreover, he had declared his Sonship, their realization that David's psalm was actually a prophesy being fulfilled in him, in their presence and to their shame.

I beg you, in demonstration of God's great love for us (see Rom 5.8), don't ever again be deceived by the lies you hear at Easter.

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

 

[patrick jane]

The MAD folks here are masters of personal attack, and in this they do not follow Christ, yet they purge from us our fallen emotional attachments to our self-affirmations... If we feel really good about our Christian walk and ride the emotions of those feel-goods, there is nothing, and I say nothing at all, like one of their floaters in one's personal feel-good punch-bowl... They are masters of deflating THAT balloon...

And you are a sensitive person, such that when your emotions become transformed, you will give empathy rather than expect sympathy, and from the inside of the empathy you give, you will find the means of giving the help that is needed...

Human emotions are fallen, and reflect past life experience, and at a a deep level they only look backward, and cannot see forward... So that people who live in them become pillars of salt... Knowing what to do with them, and doing it, is a part of the discipleship of self-denial Christ taught His Disciples... And has nothing, btw, to do with emotional repression, and everything to do with life transformation...

Much like the EXXON Valdiz, the clean-up of the emotional messes in which we find ourselves en-souped takes a long time, a lot of help, and great Grace... It is not a free-bee given by God, but is wrenched from us as we put our old man to death and embrace our Lord, both by degrees, the one at the expense of the other...

And yes, there is Light at the end of THAT tunnel!

Arsenios

nice pep talk AGAINST MAD, wow, folks really have a problem with what the BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS. we "feel good" too, we don't wallow in SELF-Pity - atrol:

 

[LAL359]

"My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"

This is the most misunderstood statement in Scripture, spoken in the Church more often and with greater passion than any sharing of the Gospel the world will ever hear, Christmas and Easter being the two times a year that sinners and nominals alike will grace the doors of a Church.

What does this saying mean if not that God the Father was forsaking his Son at the cross of Christ, he not being able to look upon the sin of the world in the becoming of sin in Christ?

By the time a Jewish boy had reached the age of thirteen, he had to have memorized the entire Book of the Psalms for his celebration of bar mitzvah. How was he taught those psalms? By way of jingles. If I say to you, "I am Tom Bodet of Motel 6 and we'll..." What does your mind do automatically? It finishes the jingle with, "leave the lights on for you." Or if "You deserve a break today..." well "at McDonald's" of course. This is how the priests taught young boys to memorize the Psalms. They memorized the Psalms by way of jingles, the opening words of each psalm setting off the memorization of the rest of the psalm in their minds.

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" are the opening words of the 22nd Psalm. I can't tell you how many times throughout my life I have heard these words uttered, followed by their English translation (Well actually I can, about 54 times). But I can tell you unequivocally that I have not once heard a sermon preached on the remainder of that psalm. Does anyone know what it is?

King David was a chronic whiner. Every time he turned around he was begging to God about one thing or another. "Smite this enemy"; "Deliver me from that." Psalm 22 starts out this way. This time however the complaint was against God himself: "Why have you forsaken me?" If however we had memorized in that Psalm the rest of the story, we would realize as well that David realized in the midst of it that God indeed had not forsaken him. That indeed there was a great and mighty victory in store; a great reconciliation was at hand.

Did David believe this (prohetic) utterance? Certainly he did; for in his very next psalm he was proclaiming "Yea, though I walk through valley..." Ah, you know that jingle, don't you?

You see, the Priests who were standing at the foot of the cross, with baited breaths anticipating Christ's last, knew them too; for they had been teaching them by memory to young boys throughout their ministries, and by memorization the remembrance of them themselves by their thirteenth birthday.

God was NOT forsaking Jesus at his time of greatest sorrow and need. Instead the Father was united there with him in the Holy Spirit in the hanging of the Son on the cross.

Jesus, in the employment of a jingle, had declared to those Priests and every Jewish man in the range of his voice, in the form of a jingle, of that great and mighty victory. Moreover, he had declared his Sonship, their realization that David's psalm was actually a prophesy being fulfilled in him, in their presence and to their shame.

I beg you, in demonstration of God's great love for us (see Rom 5.8), don't ever again be deceived by the lies you hear at Easter.

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

WOW! AMAZING! I, too have attended 50 some Good Friday services and never once was this passage explained that way! It makes SO much sense now! Again thanks tftn5280!

 

[Arsenios]

nice pep talk AGAINST MAD, wow, folks really have a problem with what the BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS. we "feel good" too, we don't wallow in SELF-Pity - atrol:

I must say that there has been a lot less of it the last several weeks... Nick has not dropped his usual load on anyone, nor John, and that some MAD folks have gotten banned/reprimands... So there does seem to have been a shift of late, and I thank God for it...

When I came here, it was standard operating procedure to launch personal assaults on those with whom the MAD folks disagreed... And they were petty, ugly, pervasive and unrelenting...

God's response was to give you God's Truth on the one hand, and Levolor on the other... And the good news seems to be that you paid attention...

But the GOOD that such personal assaults did was to purge feel-good Christians from their thinking that Christianity is a feel-good faith, and after some abuse, most of them came out fighting back in kind, and the whole site degenerated into an evil soup of mutual hatefulness...

The Bible clearly does not offer us a feel-good Faith... The Joy of Christ comes in the tribulations of the world... It does not come outside them... Paul writes repeatedly of them - Here is one such:

2Cor 6:4-6
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God,
in much patience,
in afflictions,
in necessities,
in distresses,
In stripes,
in imprisonments,
in tumults,
in labours,
in vigils,
in fastings;
By purity,
by knowledge,
by longsuffering,
by kindness,
by the Holy Ghost,
by love unfeigned,

This is not a "sit around the kitchen coffee table eating bon-bons on our fat behinds telling everyone how great Christ is if only one believes" kind of Faith... Proving our point and personally assaulting those who disagree...

Paul's list includes love unfeigned and the Holy Spirit, and the list in yellow is part and parcel of both, and the rest of the list is worth embracing...

So please forgive me for the MAD slap... I will not do it again... It has stopped, and God willing it is over... And if I am seeing aright, darker forces are marshalling to take over the behavior, and will need to be confronted by the mods...

Arsenios

 

[patrick jane]

I must say that there has been a lot less of it the last several weeks... Nick has not dropped his usual load on anyone, nor John, and that some MAD folks have gotten banned/reprimands... So there does seem to have been a shift of late, and I thank God for it...

When I came here, it was standard operating procedure to launch personal assaults on those with whom the MAD folks disagreed... And they were petty, ugly, pervasive and unrelenting...

God's response was to give you God's Truth on the one hand, and Levolor on the other... And the good news seems to be that you paid attention...

But the GOOD that such personal assaults did was to purge feel-good Christians from their thinking that Christianity is a feel-good faith, and after some abuse, most of them came out fighting back in kind, and the whole site degenerated into an evil soup of mutual hatefulness...

The Bible clearly does not offer us a feel-good Faith... The Joy of Christ comes in the tribulations of the world... It does not come outside them... Paul writes repeatedly of them - Here is one such:

2Cor 6:4-6
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God,
in much patience,
in afflictions,
in necessities,
in distresses,
In stripes,
in imprisonments,
in tumults,
in labours,
in vigils,
in fastings;
By purity,
by knowledge,
by longsuffering,
by kindness,
by the Holy Ghost,
by love unfeigned,

This is not a "sit around the kitchen coffee table eating bon-bons on our fat behinds telling everyone how great Christ is if only one believes" kind of Faith... Proving our point and personally assaulting those who disagree...

Paul's list includes love unfeigned and the Holy Spirit, and the list in yellow is part and parcel of both, and the rest of the list is worth embracing...

So please forgive me for the MAD slap... I will not do it again... It has stopped, and God willing it is over... And if I am seeing aright, darker forces are marshalling to take over the behavior, and will need to be confronted by the mods...

Arsenios

God Bless you Arsenisos, i could highlight so much . . . but, i won't. see, i think since "I" arrived things got better, so i DESERVE credit. are you kidding ? i am. vague and still an attack on MAD. remember, i took issue right away with what i saw on the "surface" from "MAD". then i paid attention. you are actually better with words than me ? - perhaps. but i know what words "mean". when attacks against Paul - MAD diminish, i am confident perspectives will change here. by all means, believe what GT posts - ?

 

[Arsenios]

Whew! Close call



Yes. My concern is that we not limit atonement to one aspect at the expense of another. There is indeed an expiatory nature to atonement, Christ becoming the sin offering on our behalf and in our stead. At the same time he is also the scape goat, he the one the sins of the world were laid upon who carried our sin to the far country, never again to confront them. He of course also is the priest, the one who mediates those offerings to the Father on our behalf.

There are other aspects of atonement as well, aspects that overlap each other but are distinct in themselves, but we'll save that for another discussion.


I think I understand you and I think based upon that understanding I agree. I get very disturbed this time of year when I hear preachers elaborate and build upon his death, those agonizing hours on the cross when Christ became sin for us that he might bear the wrath of God, he dying in estrangement (the guilt we should feel!). Blah, blah, blah. I actually get angry when I hear this. Why are preachers so much better at describing his death than they are his resurrection? It's morbid ... not to mention schizophrenic, the rip it tears in God is satanic ~ Is he not Triune? There can be NO forsakenness in midst of that union! ~ ~ the person of Jesus split apart ~ Was he not God hanging on the cross as well? Don't tell me God can't look upon sin and that he forsook his Son, then uphold Trinity and Hypostatic Union in the very next breath ~ the most important days of creation and Satan stabs a lie right in the middle of it. We with our somber faces eat it up. I digress.

When I say he became sin, I mean whatever that part of humanity that is our nature, that is what he became. If we are fallen, he was fallen; if we have a sinful nature he had a sinful nature, this that he might wage war against those things that take us down, he being the one, not we, who was without sin, in that he overcame it.

I've got to think about this one, work it out a little more in my noggin. Think with me. He was the scape goat too, you know.


You better watch it, brother. You're startin' to sound like a Reformer...



Yes, but only in his power over it.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ PROCLAIMS:

The Kingdom of Heaven is Now Here!

And it EXHORTS:

Be Ye Repenting, and Be Baptized!

And it EXPLAINS:

For the Kingdom of Heaven is Suffering Violence
AND
The Violent are Taking It by Force!

And Christ calls us to follow Him by instructing:

IF ANYone is WILLING...
After Me to be Following...
Let Him FIRST
Deny Himself...
THEN
Let Him Take Up His Own Cross Daily...
And Be Following Me...

So what do you need to DO in order to find Salvation?
It is found WITHIN, this Kingdom of Heaven...
Now here on this very earth so fallen...
And you must begin repenting...
You must get Baptized...
And deny your self...
And follow Christ...
Who suffered...

Humility in suffering for the sake of others is the hallmark of the Christian Walk... It carries great Beauty and Joy...

Christ is the Paschal Lamb,
And not just someone to blame,
Not some scape-goat victim...
He was not shoved up the Cross...
He ASCENDED the Cross...
As an OFFERING to His Father...
Voluntarily for our sakes...
For the Salvation of our Souls...

Dead men are NOT subject to the Law...
We are FREE in Christ...
Baptized into His Death on the Cross...
Suffering and Joy are united in us...
We are not subject to pleasure and pain...
Nor to self...
But to God alone in Joy...
There is nothing like it...
All voluntary...
Each and every day...

Arsenios

 

[Totton Linnet]

is this where we all stand up and cheer?
so
what does it mean?
it sure sounds good

I don't know about you
but
I see sin all around me
and
believe or not

I still sin

Yes but the victory is not to us but to the Lord, we enter into His great victory.

First understand to last the 'nth of your being this one scripture. "Himself bare our sins in His own body on the tree that we being DEAD unto sin might LIVE unto righteousness"

If "He bare them" how can YOU be baring them?

...NOW you can start cheering.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Thank-you - It was a big AHA moment for me, and I was beginning to think that I was the only one who got it, or that perhaps I had gotten it wrong...



Penance properly understood CAN be a way of victory, and under this, flagellation only rarely if at all, and then NOT as punishment of the flesh, but as a counter to the pleasure impulse imparted by the demon of fornication, and normally not with a whip but with some counter imposition of pain that neutralizes the noesis of pleasure abiding in one's members... Paul spoke of it as the subduing of the body, and not as a shadow-boxer only striking the air...

But the point here is that because Salvation came in the flesh, Christ our God, we will find it in overcoming the tyranny of the flesh, because pleasure and pain die at death, and we are baptized into the Death of Christ, and are to conduct ourselves accordingly, which invokes the issue of Christian virtue entailing courage and steadfastness...



Mortification of the flesh is a feature of living a repentant life, and is an ongoing practice of the saints who live ascetic lives. Paul tells us we are to "mortify our members"... And Christ tells us that we are tot take the hard and straited Way of Salvation... He asked regarding John the Forerunner: "What did you come expecting to see? Soft and royal robes and cushions and sumptuous fare?" [at least words to that effect] "A reed shaken in the wind?" And I do not know if you have ever girt your loins in 1st century leathers, or worn a camel hair shirt... One of our very highly ascetic fathers, elder Joseph the Hesychast, tried wearing one... He did not last two days in it...



And the Revelation is Christ IN THE FLESH... THAT is God's Revelation of His Word and our Lord...



It cannot take that particular firm grip if we are still submitting ourselves to our flesh... There IS a mind of the flesh, and there IS a mind of the Spirit, and they are not co-equal...



Salvation is not a merely mental exercise... It is not merely an IDEA... It is an ontological condition of a soul in union with God and thereby making no provision for the flesh... That is why the very first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is: REPENT! It is through repentance that God saves us... For we are saved by God's Grace, through the Faith of Christ which disciples us to repent and be baptized, every one of us... And we know from Paul that we are Baptized into Christ in the Holy Spirit... Paul Himself baptized a few, though that was not his particular calling...




Satan WAS defeated at Calvary, but NOT in YOUR flesh, and not in MY flesh, but in the fleshly Body of our Lord alone... The victory over sin was Christ's bodily victory, and that is why we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST, because His is the ONLY Body in which sin has been overcome, and we in Him can then find our own victory...

But the Cross of Calvary will NOT hand us victory UNLESS we take up our own cross each and every day and follow Christ... It is called living a saved life, or a Christian life, which denies self and embraces union with our Lord in constant prayer without ceasing...

The only thing lacking in the sufferings of Christ for our sakes is our own sufferings for Him... And this is what Paul was "filling in", and it is what we are all called to do, for in this is the joining of our marriage to the Lamb of God...

In the world, you WILL find tribulation...

It is IN this tribulation that you will find union with God...

The Joy that is NOT of this world...

Arsenios

We are each following two completely different paths, one of us has found the narrow path, which of us is that?

One clue might be that YOUR perspective is the overwhelming majority view. Regardless of whether Christians by few or many are following your path actually putting those things into practise, yet still this is what their opinion would be.

If you aksed them "what is the victorious Christian life-style?" they would answer in a chorus all that you have written

Then go and get laid, or drunk or whatever their particular sin is [excuse my bluntness] nobody wants it do they? once every hundred years or so you get a Dominic or a Francis or a Mother Theresa....they are a rare species.

The bible way is different, Paul speaks about the victory having been accomplished leaving us more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Sin will always be in our members, but it is DEAD, vanquished, dormant. Now the devil has a trick.

Whereas before he would blatently and openly tempt us, now he comes and forbids us, that is basically the doctrine you are preaching, the forbidding of the flesh. Devil is now the holy taskmaster, with his whip ready to whack you into submission on every failure.

He is kidding you that sin is still alive in you, that Christ has not properly dealt with it, that the cross was insufficient.

The correct response to the devil is to tell him to take a hike, show him God's word where it is clearly stated that Christ has borne the sins of many, and YOU are included in that number. Tell him how that the Son of God has set you FREE and that you intend to stand in the victory which He won at Calvary.

But you listen to devil, you entertain his doctrines.

I do not say that the victory will always be immediately manifest, but sooner or later the devil has to back off, the devil MUST submit to the word of the living God, he must obey Christ who is his Master. ....and you will have the victory.

 

[TFTn5280]

We are each following two completely different paths, one of us has found the narrow path, which of us is that?

One clue might be that YOUR perspective is the overwhelming majority view. Regardless of whether Christians by few or many are following your path actually putting those things into practise, yet still this is what their opinion would be.

If you aksed them "what is the victorious Christian life-style?" they would answer in a chorus all that you have written

Then go and get laid, or drunk or whatever their particular sin is [excuse my bluntness] nobody wants it do they? once every hundred years or so you get a Dominic or a Francis or a Mother Theresa....they are a rare species.

The bible way is different, Paul speaks about the victory having been accomplished leaving us more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Sin will always be in our members, but it is DEAD, vanquished, dormant. Now the devil has a trick.

Whereas before he would blatently and openly tempt us, now he comes and forbids us, that is basically the doctrine you are preaching, the forbidding of the flesh. Devil is now the holy taskmaster, with his whip ready to whack you into submission on every failure.

He is kidding you that sin is still alive in you, that Christ has not properly dealt with it, that the cross was insufficient.

The correct response to the devil is to tell him to take a hike, show him God's word where it is clearly stated that Christ has borne the sins of many, and YOU are included in that number. Tell him how that the Son of God has set you FREE and that you intend to stand in the victory which He won at Calvary.

But you listen to devil, you entertain his doctrines.

I do not say that the victory will always be immediately manifest, but sooner or later the devil has to back off, the devil MUST submit to the word of the living God, he must obey Christ who is his Master. ....and you will have the victory.

Totten, I always appreciate your posts. I look forward to reading more of them. I cannot say for sure that I understand the endgame, where you're going with all you say, but I am ready to take the ride with you. You write beyond your years. Thanks for posting.

 

[TFTn5280]

The

Christ is the Paschal Lamb,
And not just someone to blame,
Not some scape-goat victim...

Arsenios

I don't know how you could extrapolate this from anything I've said. It must be coming from somewhere else. You know what I like about me? I can still learn from others.

 

[Arsenios]

I don't know how you could extrapolate this from anything I've said. It must be coming from somewhere else. You know what I like about me? I can still learn from others.

Forgive me - I thought you had written that Christ is also a scapegoat, taking our sins onto Himself and the blame that goes with them... My only point is that the scapegoats were the animal sacrifices, IF you want to think in scapegoat terms... The Lamb of God is God's offering to God in OUR behalf... Thereby ransoming us in His Body from the grip of death and the way of sin, and unto the freedom of Life in the turning away from sin... Persevering to the end...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We are each following two completely different paths, one of us has found the narrow path, which of us is that?

Which is the harder one to walk?

Which one does Paul disciple us to walk?

One clue might be that YOUR perspective is the overwhelming majority view. Regardless of whether Christians by few or many are following your path actually putting those things into practice, yet still this is what their opinion would be.

If you aksed them "what is the victorious Christian life-style?" they would answer in a chorus all that you have written

Then go and get laid, or drunk or whatever their particular sin is [excuse my bluntness] nobody wants it do they? once every hundred years or so you get a Dominic or a Francis or a Mother Theresa....they are a rare species.

They are with us in every generation, and their fewness is an attestation to the arduous nature of the Walk... But many, many live good lifelong Christian lives in repentance and Joy...

The bible way is different, Paul speaks about the victory having been accomplished leaving us more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Indeed so, IF we do not turn from the Gift...

Sin will always be in our members, but it is DEAD, vanquished, dormant. Now the devil has a trick.

Is THAT why Paul, toward the end of his life, was subduing his own flesh 'not as a shadow boxer beating the air'...?

1Jn 1:8
If we say that we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.

Whereas before he would blatently and openly tempt us, now he comes and forbids us, that is basically the doctrine you are preaching, the forbidding of the flesh. Devil is now the holy taskmaster, with his whip ready to whack you into submission on every failure.

1Jn 1:9
If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He is kidding you that sin is still alive in you, that Christ has not properly dealt with it, that the cross was insufficient.

YOUR sin is YOURS to overcome IN Christ, and you cannot do it yourself, but must ever ASK GOD for help, and better, have someone else ask Him FOR you...

The correct response to the devil is to tell him to take a hike, show him God's word where it is clearly stated that Christ has borne the sins of many, and YOU are included in that number. Tell him how that the Son of God has set you FREE and that you intend to stand in the victory which He won at Calvary.

I do not lecture the devil...

I fall down before God...

But you listen to devil, you entertain his doctrines.

I can see why you would think so...

I do not say that the victory will always be immediately manifest, but sooner or later the devil has to back off, the devil MUST submit to the word of the living God,
he must obey Christ who is his Master. ....and you will have the victory.

Actually, that would be YOU and I...

Arsenios

 

[Totton Linnet]

Jesus didn't say the narrow path was the harder to walk, He said it was harder to find. The Jesus way is a way of joy and victory to the one who finds it.

There are few walking in victory because they are fighting the wrong fight against the wrong enemy.

Paul pummelled his flesh to keep it under. I understand that 180 degrees differently to you. I think the flesh and the mind of the flesh is extremely boastful and proud, this is not an attack on you but upon the doctrine.

I come to the place where I KNOW I cannot win this war against sin, that is in my flesh ...you have not come to that place. Yous still struggling to subdue it in the flesh. When and if we come to the place where we understand that this battle is too big for us then we cry to the Lord and He is pleased to show us where the victory is.

They overcame the devil by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is the only victory on offer and it was the Lord who trod that winepress alone.

He will not share His glory with you.

You say we must turn to God for help...the bible does not speak thus concerning sin. It speaks about deliverance.

But you never DO overcome, you only talk about overcoming. It is as you say a lifelong struggle.

As we both agree WE cannot overcome, but there is One who has, He hasn't overcome on His own behalf, He overcame on our behalf. He now IMPARTS that victory to us freely....but you have got to take it.

First you have to see it.

You do not lecture the devil, are you sure he has not been lecturing you? some of those nice sermons?.....