This day have I begotten you

[freelight]

dying god-men..............

dying god-men..............

To state this is to deny the Christian faith. Simple as that.

My bet is that you don't even understand what it means to die.

All the points in my former post and elsewhere holds, puns and all

'God' who is immortal, incorruptible, unchanging, unconditioned in his original essence by space or time but the One in whom all space and time is contained, but is still uncontainable, cannot DIE. - only that which is subject to space or time, mortality can die. The only way you jerry rig that concept in, is in the assumption that the man Jesus is God, who fully experiences mortality and suffers a mortal wound and death in the fullest ultimate sense per one's Christological creed or interpretation of that event (the Incarnation). This is all good and could be variously understood or interpreted/assumed/believed metaphysically or as a statement of religious belief. I give Trinitarian theology props in some ways since one has the full playing-field to synthesize or synergize both human and divine aspects of Jesus, so gets to explore the full depths of this extraordinary marriage in one man in so many ways. But a Unitarian Christology can too, because 'God' is still 'God', and Jesus retains his special and unique Sonship and Messiahood, none the less.

We would note that the earliest creeds do not profess a concept of God dying, and those after the Apostles Creed even seem to avoid speaking of Jesus 'dying' (focusing more on how he is 'God'a), but only 'suffering', then being raised again. Those creeds in the 4th century onwards were engaged in various Christological debates and doctrinal formulations, and even the brightest theologians will not admit to any 'death' experienced by God but only being assumed by the humanity or human soul/constitution of Jesus, and NEVER any element of pure divinity that Jesus might BE or have assumed. In any case, we can debate the fine metaphysics involved here, and universally since God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, we can see he does have intimate knowledge or experience of all things and beings, especially those who are his own sons, and much more with his Special and Uniquely begotten Son Jesus. But the pure essence of Deity cannot by nature or definition die, being deathless, incorruptible, timeless. Not to nitpick, but this logical proposition holds. - I'm aware of the wonderful and deep theological explanations on the mystery and beauty of the Incarnation, how Jesus tastes death for every man, but just saying.

As far as your definition of 'death' is concerned, or what it means to 'die',...you'll have to better ask me that question more specifically and in what context. But this may take us down many bunny trails since 'death' can be described or defined in so many ways.

 

[freelight]

The God-man Christ is not just God dying, though. It is an entirely unique event, because he was also man, who died for others. So a person can still say that God cannot.

Thats the advantage in some ways in assuming full humanity and divinity for Jesus, but its a curious confusion of natures.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Thats the advantage in some ways in assuming full humanity and divinity for Jesus, but its a curious confusion of natures.

Yup.

 

[freelight]

:thumb:

Once there were two in a similar heated debate concerning the previous topic above. And the one carnal minded one says to the spiritual minded one, Some day you are going to find out the hard way; for when Jesus returns in glorified resurrected flesh, in the physical millennial thousand-year global Reich upon the earth, he is going to make you bow down and worship at my feet! (in reference to Rev 3:9, boasting himself to be from the congregation of Philadelphia, that is, "brotherly love", (lol)). And the spiritual minded one says in response to him, How can that be when as it is right now I consume your God? And if he comes back in resurrected flesh you will still be required to eat him if you want to have life, because that is what he said, and his words will never pass away. And the twofold Evil.Cletite says in response, You are no doubt a lunatic: nobody can eat God! What planet are you from you stupid blind fool? Can't you see that IAM trying to help you because I love you? And I said to him, If you love me like a Philadelphian brother then why did you just say that your God was going to make me bow down and worship at your feet? Do you not understand that as it is right now you worship Who is inside me? I consumed all of your God because my Father told me to, (and the leg-shoulder-Arm of Lamb is the choicest portion for the kohanim too!). :Nineveh:

TASTE and see that the LORD is good :crackup:

Do you see the 'arm of the Lord' in Is. 53 as meaning a single individual messianic 'person' or the whole people of Israel, the nation/community, or something else? Can the 'arm' be symbolized even more?

 

[freelight]

logical segways.........

logical segways.........

John chapter one (just a few pages earlier) states plainly that Jesus IS the Logos of God and that He was God and that He was with God in the beginning and that He is the Creator of all things and the He became a Man whom we call Jesus. It cannot be any more clearly stated. Its plain and obvious and beyond debate.

John ch. 1 can be variously translated. Its still a pecular con-fusion of 'God' and 'logos', the logos being quite distinct from its originator, but 'divine' because of its source. 'The word was divine',...or 'what God was, the word was' - its a qualitative connotation, not necessarily an 'identical' one - of course many Unitarian expositors can also 'exegete' the kabonkers out of this passage just as good as any trins - and still, what really matters is what the author(s) of John's writing(s) are trying to communicate. This is what is at hand, not some dogmatic profession, since I think the author is using the greek philosophical emphasis of 'logos' anyways, and 'logic' or this 'creative principle' is an offspring or generation that comes out of 'God', its only source, so it has both non-personal and personal attributes, depending what context we are using the term in....just like there are non-personal and personal aspects of Deity. - and still, the logos is distinct from its Father.

Also, what does it matter if the divine logos, some divine personality, principle, spiritual entity, divine energy or spirit came upon Jesus (anointing, investing itself in, entering into, merging with, etc.) so that Jesus was indeed the living expression of the logos (its vehicle), the divine and creative word of the Father, and is a seperate divine entity or presence in itself apart from the man Jesus, whether they are still joined today or not? In this way some systems see a distinction between Jesus and the 'Christ', the latter being that divine spirit or 'Messiah-Son, Son of Man' that mantled Jesus ? A Unitarian view can still have some understanding of distinction here, but the Lord Jesus still is wholly respected in his humanity AND however he was anointed, divinitized or made to partake of the divine nature by his relationship with God. It is his SONSHIP that is emphasizes always. God is still God, and Jesus is still the Messiah-Son. - all there are are different views on Christology here, depending on what your own conscience, philosophical disposition and logical orientation resonates with.

 

[daqq]

TASTE and see that the LORD is good :crackup:

Do you see the 'arm of the Lord' in Is. 53 as meaning a single individual messianic 'person' or the whole people of Israel, the nation/community, or something else? Can the 'arm' be symbolized even more?

[01] It is written, In this year of the Yobel you shall return every man to his possession, and again, Any owner who lends to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbor or his brother:
[02] For ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim has proclaimed it the shmita-remission, a sending away, a release.
[03] And it shall come to pass in the last days that Melki Tzedek will return the captives, as it is written in haNavi Yeshayah, To proclaim liberty to the captives.
[04] For he will make their rebellious ones become their captives; and those who belong to Melki Tzedek will rule their former oppressors with a rod of iron, the Spirit of the Torah of Elohim.
[05] For the sons of light are given to Melki Tzedek, for they are his inheritance, and he will cause them to return: he will proclaim liberty to them, to free them from all their iniquities.
[06] And in the Yobel of the apokalypse, after Melki Tzedek has proclaimed liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, the Yobel shall be proclaimed:
[07] In the tenth of the seventh month, in the year of redemption, the great and wondrous acceptable year of ΙΑΩΑ, the Yobel shall be proclaimed.
[08] And at that time an atonement shall be made for the sons of light, the sons of Elohim, those who are of the lot of Melki Tzedek: from the heights he will declare in their favor, according to their lots.
[09] For it is the appointed time of the year of the grace of Melki Tzedek, to exalt in the trial, to be lifted up and magnified, and to raise up the holy ones of Elohim by the rule of upright judgment.
[10] As it is written in the Psalm, Elohim stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the Elohim He judges: how long will you judge unjustly and accept the countenances of the wicked? Selah, (Pause).
[11] I have said, You are Elohim, and all of you are sons of the Most High; but you shall die like men, and fall as one of the sarim-princes:
[12] But then he says, Arise, O Elohim, and judge the earth: for you shall inherit all the nations!
[13] And the understanding concerns Belial and all the unclean spirits of his lot, who were all of them rebels, who turned aside from the commandments of Elohim to commit evil.
[14] And Melki Tzedek shall bring forth the upright judgements of Elohim in this day; and the sons of light shall be freed from the hands of Belial, and from the hands of all the unclean spirits of his lot.
[15] And to his aid shall come all the Elohim of justice and upright judgment; and Melki Tzedek will preside from this day evermore over all bnei Elohim, for he presides over the assembly of the Elohim.
[16] And this is the great day of peace, the day of which Elohim spoke in old time by way of the words of haNavi Yeshayah, saying:
[17] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the Messenger who announces peace, the Messenger of good news who announces salvation, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[18] The mountains are the prophets; and the greatest of them all is that Prophet like unto Moshe, whom Moshe prophesied was for to come:
[19] That Prophet is the Anointed Messenger who is blessed of Elohim Most High; blessed with Ruach Melki Tzedek, the Teacher of Righteousness who descends from the heavens.
[20] And when Melki Tzedek has come the Anointed Messenger will announce salvation from the heights, for he shall be sent to comfort the afflicted, and to watch over the smitten of Zion, and to instruct us in all the ages of the world in truth and in righteousness.
[21] And he shall turn the wise and circumspect in heart away from Belial with the upright judgments of Elohim, as it is written of him, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[22] And to all the congregation of the sons of justice, and the sons of light, to those who establish the covenant, and those who avoid walking in the way of the heathen:
[23] Your Elohim and the head of the great congregation is Ruach Melki Tzedek, who is the only wise head under the Father, and the Father is the Great Head over all.
[24] And Melki Tzedek will free the captives from the hand of Belial, and the shofarim will blow in all the Land: and the great time of trouble shall come, the hour when Miykael shall pass|over.
[25] As it is written of that Prophet like unto Moshe, ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him shall you hearken:
[26] According to all that you desired of ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim in Horeb, in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of ΙΑΩΑ my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[27] And ΙΑΩΑ said to me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[28] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all whatsoever I shall command him.
[29] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words, which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
[30] For in the day of the assembly the people saw and heard the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and they removed, and stood far off.
[31] And they said unto Moshe, You speak immanu and we will hear: but let not speak immanu Elohim, lest we die!
[32] And Moshe said to the people, Fear not; for Elohim is come to prove you, that His reverential fear may be before your faces always, that you sin not.
[33] But the people stood far off, and Moshe drew near unto the thick darkness where Elohim was:
[34] And ΙΑΩΑ said to Moshe, Thus shall you say unto bnei Yisrael, You have seen that I have spoken with you from the shamayim.
[35] Moreover Moshe says again, These words ΙΑΩΑ spoke unto all your assembly in the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, out of the cloud, and out of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more, and He wrote them in two tables of stone and delivered them unto me.
[36] And it came to pass, that when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, though the mountain burned with fire, you came near to me, and all the heads of your tribes and your elders:
[37] And you said, Behold, ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that Elohim does indeed talk with man and he lives.
[38] Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we thus hear the voice of ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim any more, then we shall die.
[39] For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the Living Elohim speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and has lived?
[40] You go near, and hear all that ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim shall say: and you shall speak unto us all that ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim shall speak unto you; and we will hear it, and we will do it.
[41] And ΙΑΩΑ heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me; and ΙΑΩΑ said to me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken unto you: they have well said everything that they have spoken.
[42] מי - Miy shall put within them to have such an heart as this: that they might fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children forever!

Who is the too-Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace, and Mighty El, Who is Immanu·El, Who is that Prophet, Who is to come, Who is the Son of Man, Who is the Arm of ΙΑΩΑ revealed by Who, and Who is he that comes from Edom with garments died red from Bozrah, and Who took away all Miy question marks: for Who is Miy and Miy is Who and Who is like El. Who was from the beginning: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim: Who we declare unto you!

 

[keypurr]

I fully understand!

That's why you'll go to Hell unless you repent.

My bet is that you do not fully understand what you're even saying. What, exactly, do you think it means to die?


John chapter one (just a few pages earlier) states plainly that Jesus IS the Logos of God and that He was God and that He was with God in the beginning and that He is the Creator of all things and the He became a Man whom we call Jesus. It cannot be any more clearly stated. Its plain and obvious and beyond debate.


You are no Christian. You've been tricked or you've tricked yourself, (probably the former). I'm not kidding about this; You and everyone you know who believes this stupidity are not Christian, do not follow Christ, are not saved and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent and believe.

You don't get to just cherry pick whatever doctrines you like and which ones you want to discard without consequence. There is a reason why it had to be God doing the dying on that cross. It is the central doctrine of the entire Christian faith. Otherwise, we're just foolish quasi-Jews worshiping a false god, which is the boat you're in.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete I know your sincere in your faith but your are wrong. Jesus is not the logos, the logos was IN him.

Follow your traditions if you wish, I gave mine up to find truth, and I did. I have nothing to repent from, I found my God and I found my Lord. I would bet that you have not.

I wish you well Clete

Sent from my A622GL using TOL mobile app

 

[keypurr]

The God-man Christ is not just God dying, though. It is an entirely unique event, because he was also man, who died for others. So a person can still say that God cannot.

God can not die.
Jesus was a man, he died.
However he was anointed with the logos, which spoke through him.

Sent from my A622GL using TOL mobile app

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by daqq
[01] It is written, In this year of the Yobel you shall return every man to his possession, and again, Any owner who lends to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbor or his brother:
[02] For ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim has proclaimed it the shmita-remission, a sending away, a release.
[03] And it shall come to pass in the last days that Melki Tzedek will return the captives, as it is written in haNavi Yeshayah, To proclaim liberty to the captives.
[04] For he will make their rebellious ones become their captives; and those who belong to Melki Tzedek will rule their former oppressors with a rod of iron, the Spirit of the Torah of Elohim.
[05] For the sons of light are given to Melki Tzedek, for they are his inheritance, and he will cause them to return: he will proclaim liberty to them, to free them from all their iniquities.
[06] And in the Yobel of the apokalypse, after Melki Tzedek has proclaimed liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, the Yobel shall be proclaimed:
[07] In the tenth of the seventh month, in the year of redemption, the great and wondrous acceptable year of ΙΑΩΑ, the Yobel shall be proclaimed.
[08] And at that time an atonement shall be made for the sons of light, the sons of Elohim, those who are of the lot of Melki Tzedek: from the heights he will declare in their favor, according to their lots.
[09] For it is the appointed time of the year of the grace of Melki Tzedek, to exalt in the trial, to be lifted up and magnified, and to raise up the holy ones of Elohim by the rule of upright judgment.
[10] As it is written in the Psalm, Elohim stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the Elohim He judges: how long will you judge unjustly and accept the countenances of the wicked? Selah, (Pause).
[11] I have said, You are Elohim, and all of you are sons of the Most High; but you shall die like men, and fall as one of the sarim-princes:
[12] But then he says, Arise, O Elohim, and judge the earth: for you shall inherit all the nations!
[13] And the understanding concerns Belial and all the unclean spirits of his lot, who were all of them rebels, who turned aside from the commandments of Elohim to commit evil.
[14] And Melki Tzedek shall bring forth the upright judgements of Elohim in this day; and the sons of light shall be freed from the hands of Belial, and from the hands of all the unclean spirits of his lot.
[15] And to his aid shall come all the Elohim of justice and upright judgment; and Melki Tzedek will preside from this day evermore over all bnei Elohim, for he presides over the assembly of the Elohim.
[16] And this is the great day of peace, the day of which Elohim spoke in old time by way of the words of haNavi Yeshayah, saying:
[17] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the Messenger who announces peace, the Messenger of good news who announces salvation, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[18] The mountains are the prophets; and the greatest of them all is that Prophet like unto Moshe, whom Moshe prophesied was for to come:
[19] That Prophet is the Anointed Messenger who is blessed of Elohim Most High; blessed with Ruach Melki Tzedek, the Teacher of Righteousness who descends from the heavens.
[20] And when Melki Tzedek has come the Anointed Messenger will announce salvation from the heights, for he shall be sent to comfort the afflicted, and to watch over the smitten of Zion, and to instruct us in all the ages of the world in truth and in righteousness.
[21] And he shall turn the wise and circumspect in heart away from Belial with the upright judgments of Elohim, as it is written of him, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[22] And to all the congregation of the sons of justice, and the sons of light, to those who establish the covenant, and those who avoid walking in the way of the heathen:
[23] Your Elohim and the head of the great congregation is Ruach Melki Tzedek, who is the only wise head under the Father, and the Father is the Great Head over all.
[24] And Melki Tzedek will free the captives from the hand of Belial, and the shofarim will blow in all the Land: and the great time of trouble shall come, the hour when Miykael shall pass|over.
[25] As it is written of that Prophet like unto Moshe, ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him shall you hearken:
[26] According to all that you desired of ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim in Horeb, in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of ΙΑΩΑ my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[27] And ΙΑΩΑ said to me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[28] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all whatsoever I shall command him.
[29] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words, which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
[30] For in the day of the assembly the people saw and heard the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and they removed, and stood far off.
[31] And they said unto Moshe, You speak immanu and we will hear: but let not speak immanu Elohim, lest we die!
[32] And Moshe said to the people, Fear not; for Elohim is come to prove you, that His reverential fear may be before your faces always, that you sin not.
[33] But the people stood far off, and Moshe drew near unto the thick darkness where Elohim was:
[34] And ΙΑΩΑ said to Moshe, Thus shall you say unto bnei Yisrael, You have seen that I have spoken with you from the shamayim.
[35] Moreover Moshe says again, These words ΙΑΩΑ spoke unto all your assembly in the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, out of the cloud, and out of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more, and He wrote them in two tables of stone and delivered them unto me.
[36] And it came to pass, that when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, though the mountain burned with fire, you came near to me, and all the heads of your tribes and your elders:
[37] And you said, Behold, ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that Elohim does indeed talk with man and he lives.
[38] Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we thus hear the voice of ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim any more, then we shall die.
[39] For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the Living Elohim speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and has lived?
[40] You go near, and hear all that ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim shall say: and you shall speak unto us all that ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim shall speak unto you; and we will hear it, and we will do it.
[41] And ΙΑΩΑ heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me; and ΙΑΩΑ said to me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken unto you: they have well said everything that they have spoken.
[42] מי - Miy shall put within them to have such an heart as this: that they might fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children forever!

Who is the too-Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace, and Mighty El, Who is Immanu·El, Who is that Prophet, Who is to come, Who is the Son of Man, Who is the Arm of ΙΑΩΑ revealed by Who, and Who is he that comes from Edom with garments died red from Bozrah, and Who took away all Miy question marks: for Who is Miy and Miy is Who and Who is like El. Who was from the beginning: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim: Who we declare unto you!

We also find Melki, (my King), in Psalm 2:6 and in the Lukan genealogy:

Psalm 2:6-7
6 Yet have I set Melki, (My King), upon My holy mountain of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: YHWH has said unto me, You are My Son; this day have I begotten you.

Hi Oatmeal, that speaks of the quote which was at one time found in Luke 3:22-23.
The decree of Psalm 2:7 still appears in Codex Bezae:

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/371

LUKE 3:22-23 BEZAE (D)
—————— ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΒΗΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΠΝΕΥΜΑ
ΤΟ ΑΓΙΟΝ ϹΩΜΑΤΙΚΩ ΕΙΔΕΙ ΩϹ ΠΕΡΙϹΤΕΡΑΝ
ΕΙϹ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΦΩΝΗΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ
ΓΕΝΕϹΘΑΙ ΥΙΟϹ ΜΟΥ ΕΙ ϹΥ ΕΓΩ ϹΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΚΑ ϹΕ:ΗΝ ΔΕ Ι̅Η̅Ϲ ΩϹ ΕΤΩΝ ·Λ·
ΑΡΧΟΜΕΝΟϹ ΩϹ ΕΝΟΜΕΙΖΕ ΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ
ΥΙΟϹ —————— ΙΩϹΗΦ

Luke 3:22-23 Bezae (D)
And the Spirit the Holy One descended in corporeal-bodily form as a dove to-into him; and a voice came out of the heavens, "You are My Son, This day I have begotten you", moreover Ι̅H was about 30 years of age, as customary for one commencing to be a son — Yoseph (of Heli . . .)

And in the Lukan geneaology the names up to Zerubbabel, (or perhaps even after and all the way through), may be read according to the meanings of the names rather than simply transliterating the names as names, in other words, the names may not be only a genealogy but also a statement which may only be seen and understood by reading the meanings of each of the names. For instance Matthew means, "gift of Yah", Melki means, "my King", and so on and so on. Thus, using the more commonly accepted Greek texts which are used for most modern English translations, as concerning the remainder of the names up to Zerubbabel, the genealogy may actually be understood something like as follows, and it is fluid, (I am not sying this is the only way to read it).

Luke 3:23c-27 W/H
23c ιωσηφ του ηλι
24 του μαθθατ του λευι του μελχι του ιανναι του ιωσηφ
25 του ματταθιου του αμως του ναουμ του εσλι του ναγγαι
26 του μααθ του ματταθιου του σεμειν του ιωσηχ του ιωδα
27 του ιωαναν του ρησα του ζοροβαβελ του σαλαθιηλ του νηρι

Luke 3:22-38
And the Spirit the Holy One descended in corporeal-bodily form as a dove to-into him; and a voice came out of the heavens, "You are My Son, This day I have begotten you", moreover Ι̅H was about 30 years of age, as customary for one commencing to be a son — Ιωσηφ of Ηλι my El, the gift of Yah, of Levi of Melki my King, the flourishing one of Yoseph: the gift of Yah, the burden of comfort, the preserved of Yah, illuminating the small, a present of Yah: hear my report of Yoseph of Yhudah, of the grace of Elohim, of the head of Zerubbabel of Shealtiel of Neri of Melki of Addi of Cosam of Elmadam of Er of Yhoshua of Eliezer of Yhorim of Matthat of Levi of Shimeon of Yhudah of Yoseph of Yonam of Eliakim of Melea of Menna of Mattatha of Nathan of David of Yishay of Obed of Boaz of Salmon of Nahshon of Amminadab of Ram of Hezron of Pherez of Yhudah of Yaakob of Yitzchak of Abraham of Terah of Nahor of Serug of Reu of Peleg of Eber of Shelah of Cainan of Arphaxad of Shem of Noah of Lamech of Methuselah of Enoch of Yared of Mahalalel of Kenan of Enosh of Seth of Adam of Elohim.

 

[freelight]

Love is the Way.....

Love is the Way.....

God can not die.
Jesus was a man, he died.
However he was anointed with the logos, which spoke through him.

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And as I've often said,...what does it matter what person or vehicle the 'logos' of 'God' is being revaled or delivered THRU?, but that what is being communicated is 'actually' the logos of God. It just so happens that Jesus the Messiah is the personality thru which the revelation of God comes thru in the Bible, the Judeo-christian tradition (historical/cult-ural point in time). Deity in reality is beyond name, image and form, although He does communicate thru these means.

What can happen and is happening on various levels is the identification or exaltation of an 'image', 'personality' or 'form' of 'God', which assumes that 'image' as being 'equal' to Infinite SPIRIT. IT can never be wholly 'equal' or 'identical' on a personal level anyways, since there is ever still two personalities assumed in a Trinitarian Christology, no matter the claims of an 'essential unity'. Sure,...all that exists is derived from one essence or eternal substance, that being 'God',....for on a meta level, God is all in all, God is the only essence and reality from which anything is derived,...even if it falls into a catagory by contrasts of unreality. (God is light, but that includes all shadow dimensions). God is One, God is all. - so arrange the atoms and their relationships, plus various personalities in the cosmic family however you like,....its all from the same soup

Asides from God being the one essence, energy, consciousness behind all that is.....on another level,.....an 'idea' or 'image' of 'God' is not 'God'. We would differentiate things, forms, or personalities that might image, represent, express or typify 'God', but there is still a difference, just like God and logos in John's prologue are different, yet related of course. The logos is divine by its origination from the divine Mind from which the logic flows, from which the creative principle is derived and EXTENDED (generated/begotten/emenated, etc.). The FATHER-MOTHER God is the Sole Source of the creative word, because God is the Creative Intelligence and Spirit-life of the word, there is no other, in that sense.

God being One, the Absolute Reality, undergoes a process of translation in space-time creation, because it is there that relativity/duality/multiplicity of relationships further define and differentiate. Hence the whole of existence/creation is a manifold one, a unity wherein an infinity of diversity unfolds and is allowed to play out within the whole.

The logos is embodied in and manifested thru the Messiah-Son Jesus.....this can be fully believed in a rational/logical manner...without making Jesus into 'God', within an eternal Godhead, for Jesus still maintains all his divine glory and association as the Son of God, and one can take all his words in John within a Unitarian understanding just as well. It is enough to see God revealed in and thru Jesus the Messiah, as the SON, with all the value and meaning of that intact, without imposing a traditional creed of Christology upon it, for God is SPIRIT. Those who are pure in heart, love God and others, and do Gods will...these are those who enjoy, see and ENTER into the kingdom of God. To know God is to love God and others, for in reality there is only God, all is one. Perhaps that could be the fruitful focus of followers of Jesus, perhaps? :idunno:

 

[keypurr]

Thank you my friend, this is a great post. You are showing how blessed you are.

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[keypurr]

And as I've often said,...what does it matter what person or vehicle the 'logos' of 'God' is being revaled or delivered THRU?, but that what is being communicated is 'actually' the logos of God. It just so happens that Jesus the Messiah is the personality thru which the revelation of God comes thru in the Bible, the Judeo-christian tradition (historical/cult-ural point in time). Deity in reality is beyond name, image and form, although He does communicate thru these means.

What can happen and is happening on various levels is the identification or exaltation of an 'image', 'personality' or 'form' of 'God', which assumes that 'image' as being 'equal' to Infinite SPIRIT. IT can never be wholly 'equal' or 'identical' on a personal level anyways, since there is ever still two personalities assumed in a Trinitarian Christology, no matter the claims of an 'essential unity'. Sure,...all that exists is derived from one essence or eternal substance, that being 'God',....for on a meta level, God is all in all, God is the only essence and reality from which anything is derived,...even if it falls into a catagory by contrasts of unreality. (God is light, but that includes all shadow dimensions). God is One, God is all. - so arrange the atoms and their relationships, plus various personalities in the cosmic family however you like,....its all from the same soup

Asides from God being the one essence, energy, consciousness behind all that is.....on another level,.....an 'idea' or 'image' of 'God' is not 'God'. We would differentiate things, forms, or personalities that might image, represent, express or typify 'God', but there is still a difference, just like God and logos in John's prologue are different, yet related of course. The logos is divine by its origination from the divine Mind from which the logic flows, from which the creative principle is derived and EXTENDED (generated/begotten/emenated, etc.). The FATHER-MOTHER God is the Sole Source of the creative word, because God is the Creative Intelligence and Spirit-life of the word, there is no other, in that sense.

God being One, the Absolute Reality, undergoes a process of translation in space-time creation, because it is there that relativity/duality/multiplicity of relationships further define and differentiate. Hence the whole of existence/creation is a manifold one, a unity wherein an infinity of diversity unfolds and is allowed to play out within the whole.

The logos is embodied in and manifested thru the Messiah-Son Jesus.....this can be fully believed in a rational/logical manner...without making Jesus into 'God', within an eternal Godhead, for Jesus still maintains all his divine glory and association as the Son of God, and one can take all his words in John within a Unitarian understanding just as well. It is enough to see God revealed in and thru Jesus the Messiah, as the SON, with all the value and meaning of that intact, without imposing a traditional creed of Christology upon it, for God is SPIRIT. Those who are pure in heart, love God and others, and do Gods will...these are those who enjoy, see and ENTER into the kingdom of God. To know God is to love God and others, for in reality there is only God, all is one. Perhaps that could be the fruitful focus of followers of Jesus, perhaps? :idunno:

Thank you my friend, this is a great post. You are showing how blessed you are.

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[Clete]

The God-man Christ is not just God dying, though. It is an entirely unique event, because he was also man, who died for others. So a person can still say that God cannot.

If God did not die, we are all still in our sins.

My intent was to illicit an attempt to define what it means to die.

Care to give it a shot?

 

[Clete]

Clete I know your sincere in your faith but your are wrong. Jesus is not the logos, the logos was IN him.

Follow your traditions if you wish, I gave mine up to find truth, and I did. I have nothing to repent from, I found my God and I found my Lord. I would bet that you have not.

I wish you well Clete

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If there was any doubt in anyone's mind about whether you've adopted a faith other than Christianity, this post should put it to rest.

 

[Clete]

John ch. 1 can be variously translated. Its still a pecular con-fusion of 'God' and 'logos', the logos being quite distinct from its originator, but 'divine' because of its source. 'The word was divine',...or 'what God was, the word was' - its a qualitative connotation, not necessarily an 'identical' one - of course many Unitarian expositors can also 'exegete' the kabonkers out of this passage just as good as any trins - and still, what really matters is what the author(s) of John's writing(s) are trying to communicate. This is what is at hand, not some dogmatic profession, since I think the author is using the greek philosophical emphasis of 'logos' anyways, and 'logic' or this 'creative principle' is an offspring or generation that comes out of 'God', its only source, so it has both non-personal and personal attributes, depending what context we are using the term in....just like there are non-personal and personal aspects of Deity. - and still, the logos is distinct from its Father.

Also, what does it matter if the divine logos, some divine personality, principle, spiritual entity, divine energy or spirit came upon Jesus (anointing, investing itself in, entering into, merging with, etc.) so that Jesus was indeed the living expression of the logos (its vehicle), the divine and creative word of the Father, and is a seperate divine entity or presence in itself apart from the man Jesus, whether they are still joined today or not? In this way some systems see a distinction between Jesus and the 'Christ', the latter being that divine spirit or 'Messiah-Son, Son of Man' that mantled Jesus ? A Unitarian view can still have some understanding of distinction here, but the Lord Jesus still is wholly respected in his humanity AND however he was anointed, divinitized or made to partake of the divine nature by his relationship with God. It is his SONSHIP that is emphasizes always. God is still God, and Jesus is still the Messiah-Son. - all there are are different views on Christology here, depending on what your own conscience, philosophical disposition and logical orientation resonates with.

Sheesh! Talk about training at gnats and swallowing camels!

The point of the passage in John 1 is to directly claim the deity of Jesus Christ. It isn't complicated. Any third grader can read the passage and understand the point that is being made.

 

[keypurr]

If there was any doubt in anyone's mind about whether you've adopted a faith other than Christianity, this post should put it to rest.

Clete you do not know what true Christianity is.

It is not sitting in a church on Satan's day to sing praises to a God you do not know. It is not about creeds and doctrines. It's about love for the creator and the son he sent to us. It's about absorbing the light that was brought to us by his logos.

Love for the creator and his son will bring love for mankind. You sit in judgement of us who have the courage to bring the truth to folks who do not want to hear it, like yourself. Never think you know it all, never think you know enough, because we are all still seeking the truth in his words. I feel like the Apostle Paul when he said "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".

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[Clete]

All the points in my former post and elsewhere holds, puns and all

'God' who is immortal, incorruptible, unchanging, unconditioned in his original essence by space or time but the One in whom all space and time is contained, but is still uncontainable, cannot DIE. - only that which is subject to space or time, mortality can die. The only way you jerry rig that concept in, is in the assumption that the man Jesus is God, who fully experiences mortality and suffers a mortal wound and death in the fullest ultimate sense per one's Christological creed or interpretation of that event (the Incarnation). This is all good and could be variously understood or interpreted/assumed/believed metaphysically or as a statement of religious belief. I give Trinitarian theology props in some ways since one has the full playing-field to synthesize or synergize both human and divine aspects of Jesus, so gets to explore the full depths of this extraordinary marriage in one man in so many ways. But a Unitarian Christology can too, because 'God' is still 'God', and Jesus retains his special and unique Sonship and Messiahood, none the less.

We would note that the earliest creeds do not profess a concept of God dying, and those after the Apostles Creed even seem to avoid speaking of Jesus 'dying' (focusing more on how he is 'God'a), but only 'suffering', then being raised again. Those creeds in the 4th century onwards were engaged in various Christological debates and doctrinal formulations, and even the brightest theologians will not admit to any 'death' experienced by God but only being assumed by the humanity or human soul/constitution of Jesus, and NEVER any element of pure divinity that Jesus might BE or have assumed. In any case, we can debate the fine metaphysics involved here, and universally since God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, we can see he does have intimate knowledge or experience of all things and beings, especially those who are his own sons, and much more with his Special and Uniquely begotten Son Jesus. But the pure essence of Deity cannot by nature or definition die, being deathless, incorruptible, timeless. Not to nitpick, but this logical proposition holds. - I'm aware of the wonderful and deep theological explanations on the mystery and beauty of the Incarnation, how Jesus tastes death for every man, but just saying.

As far as your definition of 'death' is concerned, or what it means to 'die',...you'll have to better ask me that question more specifically and in what context. But this may take us down many bunny trails since 'death' can be described or defined in so many ways.

Freelight,
If nothing else, I do appreciate your good humor. I think you're a couple noodles short of a bowl of soup when it comes to your beliefs but at least you're pleasant to speak with.

It isn't a rabbit trail. The claim of these heretics is that God cannot die.

What does it mean to die?

I have a very direct and simple to understand answer to that question that is both rationally and biblically sound.

You, along with nut jobs who deny the clear biblical teaching that Jesus is the incarnation of the Creator, have no answer to the question at all. And there's a good reason why. Any answer you (they) give will put a glaring light on the anti-CHRISTian nature of this blasphemous doctrine, which is why I've asked the question.

When a person can ask one single question that blows someone's doctrine to dust without it ever being answered, the problem usually isn't with the question but with the doctrine.

This isn't my first trip around this particular barn. They almost never answer the question because they can't without either contradicting half a dozen other Christian doctrines or tacitly admitting that dying is something that God could do (So far, it's always been the former of those two). As I stated when I entered the thread, I have no intention of debating this issue. The people who deny the deity of Christ are stupid to the point that they have zero reading comprehension. I'm here to demonstrate a point and when I'm satisfied it's been demonstrated, I'll be done. It'll take just about as long as it takes for any one of these drool-slurping morons to present a definition of death.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Clete you do not know what true Christianity is.

Says the guy who isn't a Christian.

It is not sitting in a church on Satan's day to sing praises to a God you do not know. It is not about creeds and doctrines. It's about love for the creator and the son he sent to us. It's about absorbing the light that was brought to us by his logos.

Love for the creator and his son will bring love for mankind. You sit in judgement of us who have the courage to bring the truth to folks who do not want to hear it, like yourself. Never think you know it all, never think you know enough, because we are all still seeking the truth in his words. I feel like the Apostle Paul when he said "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".

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Paul worshiped Jesus as God. Your faith uses all the right words but with corrupted meanings. In short, you've put your trust in the wrong Jesus. If Jesus was not God - If God did not die on that cross, we are all still in our sins. The death of a man isn't nearly sufficient.

Repent or experience the 2nd death.

Clete

 

[Nick M]

Jesus is not the logos, the logos was IN him.

14 And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Paul would blind you. Which is much nicer than what the Lord Jesus Christ is going to do to you.

 

[keypurr]

Says the guy who isn't a Christian.


Paul worshiped Jesus as God. Your faith uses all the right words but with corrupted meanings. In short, you've put your trust in the wrong Jesus. If Jesus was not God - If God did not die on that cross, we are all still in our sins. The death of a man isn't nearly sufficient.

Repent or experience the 2nd death.

Clete

Paul did not worship Jesus as God, your misinformed.
As I told you before, you do not know God or his Christ.

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