This day have I begotten you

[Jerry Shugart]

I think we've established in this thread already, the fact of Jesus 'sonship',...that at his baptism, the Father made the divine announcement of being BEGOTTEN that day, as the dove of the Holy Spirit (the 'Christ' or 'logos') came upon/into Jesus...

Hi freelight!

Can you please tell me where we read that the Lord Jesus was "begotten" when the dove of the Holy Spirit fell upon Him?

As far as I can see the Lord Jesus being "begotten" happened when He was resurrected from the dead, as witnessed by the words of Paul here:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 13:33-35).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So the question is this:

"You are My Son, this day have I begotten you"

Where and when does the Father speak to Yeshua these words from Psalm 2:7 as the author of Hebrews asserts?

I would say that those words were spoken to the Lord Jesus at His resurrection from the dead. Paul said this:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 13:33-35).​

 

[daqq]

I would say that those words were spoken to the Lord Jesus at His resurrection from the dead. Paul said this:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 13:33-35).​

Already explained in Reply #5 on Page #1 of this thread:

You are welcome.

Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

LA

It is not "raised up Jesus again" because it is not in the sense of resurrection and that is shown by the context, (and both egeiro and anistemi are variously employed in both ways of understanding). The reason why is that Yeshua is the one whom the Father promised to raise up that would be like unto Moshe. In this sense it is "to raise up a prophet" in the land. It is thus not speaking of the resurrection of Yeshua but rather speaking of his immersion. If the full quote had not been expunged from Luke 3:22, (which quotes the full statement from Psalm 2:7 and still exists in the old form in Codex Bezae and some Latin manuscripts), this would have been obvious to the translator and especially to the reader because both Luke and the Acts are from the same author. Some even argue, though it is debatable, that originally the two books came together as one unit.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 KJV
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

It is this kind of "raise up" by the context in Acts and the ASV comes very close to saying exactly the same:

Acts 13:32-34 ASV
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,
33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.

The "And", (in red), at the beginning of v.34 is not "kai" but the particle "de" which very often should be understood as "but" because it is a particle of separation "but" continuative, (adversative). If we then render it as it is translated in the ASV with only this slight correction the meaning is abundantly clear. The author speaks firstly, in v.33, of the raising up of "that Prophet like unto Moshe" but then goes on to speak of the resurrection of Yeshua by a separate way from a different quote taken from Isaiah in the verse that follows, (v.34).

Acts 13:34
34 οτι δε ανεστησεν αυτον εκ νεκρων μηκετι μελλοντα υποστρεφειν εις διαφθοραν ουτως ειρηκεν οτι δωσω υμιν τα οσια δαυιδ τα πιστα

Acts 13:32-34 ASV Corrected
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,
33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; [Deuteronomy 18:18] as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee [Psalm 2:7, Luke 3:22].
34 But as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David [Isaiah 55:3].

What then followed was a discussion on the necessity of a witness and you have no human witness for your interpretation, assumption, and assertion. Your theory on the passage actually eliminates the witness of Yohanan the Immerser who testified of the Son of Elohim all things whatsoever he saw, (and heard). Without a witness you have no evidence of anything because anyone can say that anyone was proclaimed "begotten" in heaven simply because no human being was "in the heavens" to witness what you suggest or claim. Your claim is invalid likewise because our faith is not based in fideistic blind faith but instead rather evidence from the written word. You're making the erroneous claim that, "Jesus was proclaimed 'begotten' after his crucifixion, when he was resurrected, or when he arrived in heaven", which is a claim that cannot be affirmed or denied because there is NO HUMAN WITNESS to confirm or deny what you say. Over and above all this you are pretending to believe that the Father spoke, and confirmed His Son at the immersion, while speaking only a fragment of the OATH and DECREE recorded in Psalm 2:7, (claiming that He only said, "You are My son", while leaving off the rest of the decree to suit your paradigm dogma), which is preposterous and bordering on offensive imo.

 

[daqq]

Proverbs 30:4-5
4 Who has ascended up into the heavens or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is the name of His Son, if you know?
5 Every Imrat-Word [Memra] of Eloah is refined: He is a shield to them that put their trust in Him [Gen 15:1].

And no one has ascended into the heavens but he that from the heavens descended:
The Son of man! [John 3:13]

But this whole thing was done so that what is spoken from YHWH by way of haNavi YeshaYah might be fulfilled, saying, Behold, the virgin shall retain engastri, (in belly), and shall texetai-produce a son, (tikto plant life), and you shall call his name עמנו אל, (Eμμανου·Hλ), which is interpreted, El is with us. And Yoseph arose from the hypnos deep sleep, and did as the Malak of YHWH commanded him, and received his wife of youth and wife of covenant: and knew her not until she produced a son, (tikto plant life), and he called his name I͞H.

Tzaddokim 3:35-42 (Bnei Zadok - Apokalypse Yaakob)
[35] And behold, a voice, saying, Greetings, you who are highly favored; the Master is with you!
[36] And Maryah looked roundabout, to the right and to the left, to see from where the voice had come: and she went trembling, entering into her house, and set down the pitcher.
[37] And having taken the purple she sat upon her seat and began to draw it out, and behold, Malak of YHWH stood before her, saying:
[38] Fear not, Maryah, for you have found favor before the Master of All, and you shall conceive retaining seed from His Word.
[39] But having heard this Maryah disputed within herself, saying, Shall I conceive from the Word of YHWH Elohim the Living and bring forth the same as every woman brings forth?
[40] And the Malak of YHWH said to her, Not in that way Maryah; but the power of Elohim shall overshadow you, wherefore the holy one born of you shall be called a son of the Most High:
[41] And you shall call his name I͞H; for he shall deliver His people from their sins.
[42] And Maryah said, Behold, the maidservant of YHWH is before Him: let it be unto me according to your Rhema Word.

Luke 8:11
11 Now the parable is this: The Seed is the Logos-Word of Elohim.

:sheep:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I would say that those words were spoken to the Lord Jesus at His resurrection from the dead. Paul said this:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 13:33-35).​

:doh:

 

[daqq]

I would say that those words were spoken to the Lord Jesus at His resurrection from the dead. Paul said this:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 13:33-35).
​

:doh:

Notice he quotes what appears to be the KJV but leaves out the contextual parameter from just above the passage he has quoted. By the context it should not read "in that he hath raised up Jesus again" but rather, because Paul is recounting all that had transpired, he refers back to the beginning of the ministry of Yeshua where Elohim raised him up in the sense of raising a Prophet in the Land. That can only actually mean the immersion of Yeshua and commencement of his ministry. The ASV renders the same statement without using the word "again", (because it is not a separate word in the text but rather the KJV typical rendering of the word anastesas-anistemi), so the ASV is apparently giving more recognition to the actual overall context. Beginning at verse thirty-two Paul begins to recount the overall message that he brings from the commencement of the ministry of Yeshua because his message and Gospel includes the Testimony of Yeshua and that necessarily must include the full ministry of Yeshua:

Acts 13:30-34 ASV
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,
33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.
35 Because he saith also in another psalm, Thou wilt not give thy Holy One to see corruption.

What I was trying to point out at the beginning of this thread on page one is that the word rendered "And" at the beginning of verse thirty-four is actually the particle "de" which very often is rendered as "but". This very strongly implies that the author is much more likely making a distinction between the "raising up of Yeshua" in the sense of a Prophet as opposed to the "raising up of Yeshua" at the Resurrection after his ministry was complete. If we simply correct this one single word in the ASV, at the front of verse thirty-four, (from "And" to "But"), the passage clearly expounds exactly what has been proposed throughout this thread: in fact it is clearly evident that both the author and Paul are making this distinction by quoting several different other passages to make the case for the Resurrection, (Isaiah 55:3 and Psalm 16:10 just for starters here in this passage).

The ASV with "And" corrected to "BUT" at the beginning of the Acts 13:34 statement:

Acts 13:30-34
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people [end of preceding testimony concerning Yeshua and his resurrection].
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, [from here Paul is recounting from the commencement of the ministry of Yeshua]
33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; [at his immersion in the sense of raising up a Prophet to be sent unto Yisrael] as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee [Psalm 2:7].
34 BUT as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David [Isaiah 55:3].
35 Because he saith also in another psalm, Thou wilt not give thy Holy One to see corruption [Psalm 16:10].

Thus we have herein "The Prophet" raised up and sent to the people just as Moshe foretold. This commenced with the immersion of Yeshua, (Psalm 2:7). Then, after he was crucified by the very same people he was sent to, Elohim raised him up from the dead, (Isaiah 55:3, Psalm 16:10).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Acts 13:32-34 ASV
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,
33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.

The "And", (in red), at the beginning of v.34 is not "kai" but the particle "de" which very often should be understood as "but" because it is a particle of separation "but" continuative, (adversative). If we then render it as it is translated in the ASV with only this slight correction the meaning is abundantly clear. The author speaks firstly, in v.33, of the raising up of "that Prophet like unto Moshe" but then goes on to speak of the resurrection of Yeshua by a separate way from a different quote taken from Isaiah in the verse that follows, (v.34).

Let us look at this passage from the KJV:

"And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up (anistēmi) Jesus again (anistēmi); as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34. And as concerning that he raised (anistēmi) him up (anistēmi) from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36. For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37. But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption" (Acts 13:32-37).​

Here we see that in these verses the Greek word anistēmi is used four times, twice in verse 33 and twice in verse 34. In verse 34 the word is speaking of the Lord Jesus being raised from the dead. And since it is used twice the second time it obviously means "again."

There is no reason at all to suppose that the meaning of anistēmi in verse 33 is different from its meaning in verse 34. After all, the configuration is practically the same in both verses, speaking of being raised up "again." Since in verse 34 the reference is clearly to the Lord Jesus' resurrection then it is certain that the Lord's resurrection is also in view in verse 33.

Next, at the beginning of verse 34 the Greek word de is translated "and." One of the meanings of the Greek word is: "it is joined to terms which are repeated with a certain emphasis, and with certain additions as tend to explain and establish them more exactly" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

That meaning fits perfectly with the idea that the "raising up again" in both verses mean the same thing, the Lord's resurrection from the dead. In the KJV the word anistēmi is translated as "moreover" thirteen times so with that in mind let us look at these verses again:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up (anistēmi) Jesus again (anistēmi); as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34. Morever as concerning that he raised (anistēmi) him up (anistēmi) from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David" (Acts 13:33-34).​

Therefore, it becomes clear that the words "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" are referring to the resurrection from the dead of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[daqq]

Let us look at this passage from the KJV:

"And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up (anistēmi) Jesus again (anistēmi); as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34. And as concerning that he raised (anistēmi) him up (anistēmi) from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36. For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37. But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption" (Acts 13:32-37).​

Here we see that in these verses the Greek word anistēmi is used four times, twice in verse 33 and twice in verse 34. In verse 34 the word is speaking of the Lord Jesus being raised from the dead. And since it is used twice the second time it obviously means "again."

There is no reason at all to suppose that the meaning of anistēmi in verse 33 is different from its meaning in verse 34. After all, the configuration is practically the same in both verses, speaking of being raised up "again." Since in verse 34 the reference is clearly to the Lord Jesus' resurrection then it is certain that the Lord's resurrection is also in view in verse 33.

Next, at the beginning of verse 34 the Greek word de is translated "and." One of the meanings of the Greek word is: "it is joined to terms which are repeated with a certain emphasis, and with certain additions as tend to explain and establish them more exactly" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

That meaning fits perfectly with the idea that the "raising up again" in both verses mean the same thing, the Lord's resurrection from the dead. In the KJV the word anistēmi is translated as "moreover" thirteen times so with that in mind let us look at these verses again:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up (anistēmi) Jesus again (anistēmi); as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34. Morever as concerning that he raised (anistēmi) him up (anistēmi) from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David" (Acts 13:33-34).​

Therefore, it becomes clear that the words "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" are referring to the resurrection from the dead of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

That is simply not true at all. You are apparently checking a version somewhere of the KJV with Strong's links which has placed the word anistemi with both words even though they both refer to the same usage of the same word in the Greek text. They are divided and appear as two instances only because of the way the wording comes out in English when you add the word "again" into the translation. There is only one occurrence in each of the two verses you have quoted. The KJV follows the Textus Receptus which has the word anistemi once in each verse. The same is true with all other texts, (which I will provide links to below each verse).

Acts 13:33-34 T/R
33 οτι ταυτην ο θεος εκπεπληρωκε τοις τεκνοις αυτων ημιν αναστησας ιησουν ως και εν τω ψαλμω τω δευτερω γεγραπται υιος μου ει συ εγω σημερον γεγεννηκα σε
http://biblehub.com/text/acts/13-33.htm
34 οτι δε ανεστησεν αυτον εκ νεκρων μηκετι μελλοντα υποστρεφειν εις διαφθοραν ουτως ειρηκεν οτι δωσω υμιν τα οσια δαβιδ τα πιστα
http://biblehub.com/text/acts/13-34.htm

In addition, if "again" should truly be added into the reading in either place, would you not think that it should be in the second placement in this context, in verse thirty-four, which concerns Yeshua being raised from the dead, ("raised up again")? Lol, funny how the KJV does not do the same with the second occurrence in verse thirty four. Bias, belias, be liaz... :chuckle:

Acts 13:34a -- "οτι δε ανεστησεν αυτον εκ νεκρων" . . .
"BUT concerning that He raised him up again from the dead" . . .

It is exactly as was just stated a couple of posts back concerning this rendering in the KJV: the word "again" is nowhere in the text but simply the typical rendering of the KJV when it comes to the word anistemi and its forms. Whereas the ASV and other translations simply render anistemi as "raise up", "raised up", "rise up", and so on; the KJV instead often renders it "raise again", "raised again", "rise again", and so on, (and apparently that is especially so when it points the reader in the direction of a particular bias). It is not that it is always wrong but rather woefully wrong in this instance.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are apparently checking a version somewhere of the KJV with Strong's links which has placed the word anistemi with both words even though they both refer to the same usage of the same word in the Greek text.

Yes, that is what I did. However, you cannot dispute that one of the meanings I gave for the Greek word de found at the beginning of verse 34 fits perfectly with the idea that the meaning of anistēmi as used at verse 33 is the same meaning as anistēmi in verse 34, can you?

Now let us look at these verses from the ASV:

"But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David. Because he saith also in another [psalm], Thou wilt not give Thy Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: but he whom God raised up saw no corruption" (Acts 13:30-37).​

Beginning with verse 30 the subject under discussion is the Lord's resurrection from the dead. Then in verses 34-37 the subject is once again His resurrection. So common sense dictates that in verse 33, which speaks of the Lord Jesus being "raised up," the subject must also be in regard to the resurrection.

It makes absolutely no sense to assert that even though all of the verses in "bold" are speaking of the resurrection that the underlined words are not referring to the resurrection. According to your idea Paul was saying all this about the resurrection and then all of a sudden, out of the blue, he just decided to start talking about something completely unrelated to the subject which he was discussing.

What you do is to jerk verse 33 out of its "context" and place a foreign meaning on it because you want to use that meaning to support another of your ideas. You completely ignore the "context" in which the verse is found.

 

[freelight]

Quick Note....

Quick Note....

Hi freelight!

Can you please tell me where we read that the Lord Jesus was "begotten" when the dove of the Holy Spirit fell upon Him?

As far as I can see the Lord Jesus being "begotten" happened when He was resurrected from the dead, as witnessed by the words of Paul here:

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 13:33-35).​

Hi JS,

For just a quick note until I can return with more time:

This has been answered in the first few pages here (and I chime in on page 4 onwards), regarding how Palsm 2:7 fits into the gospel passages concerned but in at least one instance the latter part of this passage was 'ommitted' (likely from biased theological reasons against the teaching of Adoptionism), - we've already shown ample evidence/support for controversial issues around this very phrase "Today I have begotten you". I agree with Daqq on this point so far and have offered my own insights when we consider all the passages that 'quote' Psalm 2:7 either in part or in whole.

As has been shared, the divine anouncement AT his baptism is significant, for obvious reasons of the anouncement itself. One can argue about his 'seal' of being the 'Son of God' or some bestowal of Sonship given at other particular times, but its clear something special was 'decreed' at the baptism regarding his being 'begotten' at that time, some anointing of Sonship at the descent of the Holy Spirit. You cannot ignore that,...while whatever is written about his resurrection goes without saying - all things must be understood in their proper context. What you might need to do is study all the evidence and logics provided to put the puzzle pieces together on this particular point. - there is sometimes more to 'see', 'learn' and 'discover'.

Allan Cronshaw has some wonderful articles on this, see his page - The Challenge of the 10 words.

:thumb:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This has been answered in the first few pages here...

Hi freelight,

Perhaps you can answer my following observation about these verses from the 13th Chapter of Acts:

"But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:30-33; ASV).​

In verses 30-31 the subject under discussion is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Then the following verse begins with the Greek word kai, which is translated "and." The Greek word is a conjuction, which joins together what is said in verses 30-31 with what is said in the sentence which follows. Therefore, we can understand that the subject spoken of in the following passage is about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus" (Acts 13:32-33; ASV).​

When we examine the sentence which follows we can know that the words "raised up Jesus" are indeed referring to the Lord's resurrection:

"And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David" (Acts 13:34; ASV).​

Therefore, the words in "bold" here are in reference to what was said on the day of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"...that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption" (Acts 13:33-34).​

Thanks!

 

[daqq]

Yes, that is what I did. However, you cannot dispute that one of the meanings I gave for the Greek word de found at the beginning of verse 34 fits perfectly with the idea that the meaning of anistēmi as used at verse 33 is the same meaning as anistēmi in verse 34, can you?

Now let us look at these verses from the ASV:

"But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David. Because he saith also in another [psalm], Thou wilt not give Thy Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: but he whom God raised up saw no corruption" (Acts 13:30-37).​

Beginning with verse 30 the subject under discussion is the Lord's resurrection from the dead. Then in verses 34-37 the subject is once again His resurrection. So common sense dictates that in verse 33, which speaks of the Lord Jesus being "raised up," the subject must also be in regard to the resurrection.

It makes absolutely no sense to assert that even though all of the verses in "bold" are speaking of the resurrection that the underlined words are not referring to the resurrection. According to your idea Paul was saying all this about the resurrection and then all of a sudden, out of the blue, he just decided to start talking about something completely unrelated to the subject which he was discussing.

What you do is to jerk verse 33 out of its "context" and place a foreign meaning on it because you want to use that meaning to support another of your ideas. You completely ignore the "context" in which the verse is found.

To get where you are one must ignore the fifteen pages of this thread which came before this page. Sorry, but I'm just not willing to ignore the Word of Elohim in all the scripture passages quoted herein and go running back off to die with you just so I can re-join your party after already having departed from those views long ago. This is not for people who love their doctrines and dogma above all else; it is for those who love the Father and are willing to honestly look at what is written, what may have once been written, and who are willing to look at ALL the evidence instead of only seeing what they want to see because of paradigm blinders. I have not jerked anything out of context but you refuse to even entertain the possibility that you have been lied to while indeed you have been lied to and the evidence is all over the first fifteen pages of this thread. Moreover you believe the Father never spoke the full decree from Psalm 2:7 to Messiah until after he died and was resurrected. You are living a fairy tale where if something doesn't work you simply forward it into eternity and figure you will worry about it when you arrive. I'm already here and trying to tell you that you are headed the wrong way; and I know because you keep forwarding your garbage to where we are and we keep sending it back to you hoping you will get the point before it is too late. :chuckle:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Dagg,

What do you think of Psalm 110 verse 4.

Did this have to be spoken during Jesus lifetime on earth too?

LA

 

[Zeke]

Yes, that is what I did. However, you cannot dispute that one of the meanings I gave for the Greek word de found at the beginning of verse 34 fits perfectly with the idea that the meaning of anistēmi as used at verse 33 is the same meaning as anistēmi in verse 34, can you?

Now let us look at these verses from the ASV:

"But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers,that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David. Because he saith also in another [psalm], Thou wilt not give Thy Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: but he whom God raised up saw no corruption" (Acts 13:30-37).​

Beginning with verse 30 the subject under discussion is the Lord's resurrection from the dead. Then in verses 34-37 the subject is once again His resurrection. So common sense dictates that in verse 33, which speaks of the Lord Jesus being "raised up," the subject must also be in regard to the resurrection.

It makes absolutely no sense to assert that even though all of the verses in "bold" are speaking of the resurrection that the underlined words are not referring to the resurrection. According to your idea Paul was saying all this about the resurrection and then all of a sudden, out of the blue, he just decided to start talking about something completely unrelated to the subject which he was discussing.

What you do is to jerk verse 33 out of its "context" and place a foreign meaning on it because you want to use that meaning to support another of your ideas. You completely ignore the "context" in which the verse is found.

But that wasn't physical death Jerry, the death/sleep of the Divine seed in man is the raising/awakening that is being taught! you have no historical foundation to build you're assumptions on other than traditional hear say.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Actually,

Are we to assume that Jesus arrived at His Sonship at His Baptism?



Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is not for people who love their doctrines and dogma above all else; it is for those who love the Father and are willing to honestly look at what is written, what may have once been written, and who are willing to look at ALL the evidence instead of only seeing what they want to see because of paradigm blinders.

I am looking at the meaning of what is said in the following passage honestly and without depending on my doctrine or dogma in any sense:

"But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:30-33; ASV).​

In verses 30-31 the subject under discussion is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Then the following verse begins with the Greek word kai, which is translated "and." The Greek word is a conjuction, which joins together what is said in verses 30-31 with what is said in the sentence which follows. Therefore, we can understand that the subject spoken of in the following passage is about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus" (Acts 13:32-33; ASV).​

When we examine the sentence which follows we can know that the words "raised up Jesus" are indeed referring to the Lord's resurrection:

"And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David" (Acts 13:34; ASV).​

Therefore, the words in "bold" here are in reference to what was said on the day of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"...that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption" (Acts 13:33-34).​

If my conclusion is in error then I am sure that you can tell me exactly where I went wrong.

Thanks!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Act 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

 

[daqq]

I am looking at the meaning of what is said in the following passage honestly and without depending on my doctrine or dogma in any sense:

"But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:30-33; ASV).​

In verses 30-31 the subject under discussion is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Then the following verse begins with the Greek word kia, which is translated "and." The Greek word is a conjuction, which joins together what is said in verses 30-31 with what is said in the sentence which follows. Therefore, we can understand that the subject spoken of in the following passage is about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus" (Acts 13:32-33; ASV).​

When we examine the sentence which follows we can know that the words "raised up Jesus" are indeed referring to the Lord's resurrection:

"And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David" (Acts 13:34; ASV).​

Therefore, the words in "bold" here are in reference to what was said on the day of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"...that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption" (Acts 13:33-34).​

If my conclusion is in error then I am sure that you can tell me exactly where I went wrong.

Thanks!

You are ignoring the fact that the same author, "Luke", already wrote the following passage in Luke 3:22 which still appears in Codex Bezae. Codex Bezae was for a long time one of only two great and most important codices to all Christianity; but with the discovery of two more codices it has now fallen into disfavor with Trinitarian scholarship. The main reason why, though it often goes unstated, is precisely because it refutes the "Eternal Son doctrine" by what is written in the following Luke 3:22 passage. If the author of Acts had already reported the Psalm 2:7 decree in Luke 3:22 then it clarifies even more so the passage now under discussion in Acts 13.

Codex Bezae (D) is one of the four great uncial and most important codices to Christianity:

Luke 3:22 Codex Bezae
22 καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡς περιστερὰν εἰς αὐτόν καὶ φωνὴν ἐκ τοῡ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι υἱός μου εἶ σὺ ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε
Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis

Luke 3:22 Codex Bezae
22 And the Holy Spirit [or Spirit of the Holy One] descended in somatiko-corporeal-bodily form as a dove to-into him, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My Son, this day have I begotten you." [Psalms 2:7 - full quotation]
University of Cambridge - Codex Bezae

What remains of your stance, again, has already been addressed:

From my perspective that makes no sense at all because it eliminates the need for the Witness. The Witness is the Immerser, in fact, the Immerser never touches the one immersing but rather the one immersing immerses himself under the name of the Immerser, (his name is his doctrine). The Immerser simply stands and bears witness to whatsoever he sees and hears. If the Acts passage speaks of the resurrection of Yeshua then what need is there for a Witness in the heavens? The heavens already know at that point who Yeshua is because he had already fulfilled his ministry on earth, had already been crucified, and was at that point resurrected: there is no need for the Witness to testify of what has come to pass to those in the heavens because they would already have known. One thing much of Christianity tends to overlook is the fact that we are called to believe through Yohanan the Immerser, that is, because he is the Witness. This is plainly spelled out in the opening of the Gospel of John, (John 1:7). Additionally, as was hinted at previously, the author of Acts is using the same words from the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy when he speaks of the Father raising up Yeshua to preach the good news message to the people in his earthly ministry:

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 LXX
18:15 προφητην εκ των αδελφων σου ως εμε αναστησει σοι κυριος ο θεος σου αυτου ακουσεσθε
18:16 κατα παντα οσα ητησω παρα κυριου του θεου σου εν χωρηβ τη ημερα της εκκλησιας λεγοντες ου προσθησομεν ακουσαι την φωνην κυριου του θεου ημων και το πυρ το μεγα τουτο ουκ οψομεθα ετι ουδε μη αποθανωμεν
18:17 και ειπεν κυριος προς με ορθως παντα οσα ελαλησαν
18:18 προφητην αναστησω αυτοις εκ των αδελφων αυτων ωσπερ σε και δωσω το ρημα μου εν τω στοματι αυτου και λαλησει αυτοις καθοτι αν εντειλωμαι αυτω
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/05_018.htm

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 LXX Brenton English Translation
15 The Lord thy God shall raise up [αναστησει] to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear:
16 according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die.
17 And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee.
18 I will raise up [αναστησω] to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him.

In the above passage a form of anistemi is used, just as in Acts 13:33, but notice what is used in the resurrection statement which you have now included from the same passage; it is not a form of anistemi but a form of egeiro:

Acts 13:30
30 ο δε θεος ηγειρεν αυτον εκ νεκρων

Acts 13:30 ASV
30 But God raised him from the dead:

This strongly implies that the author is differentiating between the two statements simply by the usage of these two words which are in other places employed almost as if interchangeable; and if that be the case then he most likely does so here because of what is written in Deuteronomy 18:15-18, for when he arrives at Acts 13:33 he writes αναστησας concerning the raising up of Yeshua as "the Prophet like unto Moshe" that everyone had been expecting before the coming of the Prophet sent from Elohim. The Most High Elohim "stood up" His Prophet, a man like unto Moshe from among our brethren, and this would necessarily had to have been at the commencement of the ministry of Yeshua, at the immersion of "The Prophet" of all prophets, (and Yeshua claims the title of Prophet in Luke 13:33).

Acts 13:34
34 οτι δε ανεστησεν αυτον εκ νεκρων μηκετι μελλοντα υποστρεφειν εις διαφθοραν ουτως ειρηκεν οτι δωσω υμιν τα οσια δαυιδ τα πιστα

Acts 13:32-35
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers:
33 How that Elohim has fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up I͞H, [Deuteronomy 18:18] as also it is written in the second Psalm, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" [Psalm 2:7 - Luke 3:22].
34 But that He raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, He has spoken in this manner, "I will give you the trustworthy divine-holy-mercies of David" [Isaiah 55:3].
35 Because he [David] says also in another Psalm, "You will not give your Holy One to see corruption" [Psalm 16:10].

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are ignoring the fact that the same author, "Luke", already wrote the following passage in Luke 3:22 which still appears in Codex Bezae.

The subject we are discussing is the meaning of the following words in Acts 13:30-34. Not what might or might not have been said at Luke 3:22.

I asked you to tell me what I said that is in error. Evidently you were unable to find anything so you want to change the subject. If I am wrong about what I said about the following passage then tell me exactly what I said that is in error:

"But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:30-33; ASV).​

In verses 30-31 the subject under discussion is the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Then the following verse begins with the Greek word kai, which is translated "and." The Greek word is a conjuction, which joins together what is said in verses 30-31 with what is said in the sentence which follows. Therefore, we can understand that the subject spoken of in the following passage is about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus" (Acts 13:32-33; ASV).​

When we examine the sentence which follows we can know that the words "raised up Jesus" are indeed referring to the Lord's resurrection:

"And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David" (Acts 13:34; ASV).​

Therefore, the words in "bold" here are in reference to what was said on the day of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"...that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption" (Acts 13:33-34).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You are ignoring the fact that the same author, "Luke", already wrote the following passage in Luke 3:22 which still appears in Codex Bezae. Codex Bezae was for a long time one of only two great and most important codices to all Christianity; but with the discovery of two more codices it has now fallen into disfavor with Trinitarian scholarship. The main reason why, though it often goes unstated, is precisely because it refutes the "Eternal Son doctrine" by what is written in the following Luke 3:22 passage. If the author of Acts had already reported the Psalm 2:7 decree in Luke 3:22 then it clarifies even more so the passage now under discussion in Acts 13.



What remains of your stance, again, has already been addressed:



Acts 13:34
34 οτι δε ανεστησεν αυτον εκ νεκρων μηκετι μελλοντα υποστρεφειν εις διαφθοραν ουτως ειρηκεν οτι δωσω υμιν τα οσια δαυιδ τα πιστα

Acts 13:32-35
32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers:
33 How that Elohim has fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up I͞H, [Deuteronomy 18:18] as also it is written in the second Psalm, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" [Psalm 2:7 - Luke 3:22].
34 But that He raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, He has spoken in this manner, "I will give you the trustworthy divine-holy-mercies of David" [Isaiah 55:3].
35 Because he [David] says also in another Psalm, "You will not give your Holy One to see corruption" [Psalm 16:10].

Wow! You mean to say Paul wasn't that prophet?

:shut: