The Word "WHOSOEVER" Refutes Calvinism, All Religions

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The word "whosoever" is found 71 times in the Old Testament and 110 times in the New Testament. In the Greek the word means "All" "Anyone" "Everyone" (Strong's Concordance, word #63956) In the (Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary) the word "Whosoever" means the same thing as in the Greek, "All" "Anyone" Everyone."

To say that God only saves or provides salvation for "Some Certain Persons" (Canons of Dort. FIRST HEAD. Article #10) is in conflict with the Bible. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 and has provided salvation for everyone.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER (All, anyone, Everyone) that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

One of the traits of the Pharisees was elitism. They saw themselves as God's special chosen people, much like Calvinist. Religion tends to separate people into groups. Each group claims that they have the truth and that all of the other groups are lost and are going to hell. Cults do the same thing, they set themselves apart from the rest of society and believe that they are the special chosen ones. Elitism is not of the Spirit of God and is anti-Christ.

The word "whosoever" which means all, anyone, everyone, does away with the idea that God favors "Some Certain Persons." This is why the scripture says that "God so loves the world." It is only natural for God to love those who love him. If anyone is special to God it is those that are the "whosoever's" that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him and believe that Jesus has provided salvation for everyone and not just him.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The word "whosoever" is found 71 times in the Old Testament and 110 times in the New Testament. In the Greek the word means "All" "Anyone" "Everyone" (Strong's Concordance, word #63956) In the (Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary) the word "Whosoever" means the same thing as in the Greek, "All" "Anyone" Everyone."

To say that God only saves or provides salvation for "Some Certain Persons" (Canons of Dort. FIRST HEAD. Article #10) is in conflict with the Bible. The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 and has provided salvation for everyone.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER (All, anyone, Everyone) that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

One of the traits of the Pharisees was elitism. They saw themselves as God's special chosen people, much like Calvinist. Religion tends to separate people into groups. Each group claims that they have the truth and that all of the other groups are lost and are going to hell. Cults do the same thing, they set themselves apart from the rest of society and believe that they are the special chosen ones. Elitism is not of the Spirit of God and is anti-Christ.

The word "whosoever" which means all, anyone, everyone, does away with the idea that God favors "Some Certain Persons." This is why the scripture says that "God so loves the world." It is only natural for God to love those who love him. If anyone is special to God it is those that are the "whosoever's" that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him and believe that Jesus has provided salvation for everyone and not just him.

Your savior is mans freewill !
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Your savior is mans freewill !

Yep, Pate's own freewill is his savior!

But according to the scriptures, Salvation is strictly according to God's Will!

So his hope is in vain.

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Yep, Pate's own freewill is his savior!

But according to the scriptures, Salvation is strictly according to God's Will!

So his hope is in vain.

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Neither you or B57 can refute the opening post. The reason that you cannot refute the opening post is because you can't.

All that you can do is try to discredit me. And you can't really do that either.

The word of God stands strong against false teachers like you and B57 and exposes you for what you are, heretics.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Robert Pate,
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 and has provided salvation for everyone.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER (All, anyone, Everyone) that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. .
I agree with the concept that you advocated. In my fellowship the concept of Calvinism and predestination is rarely discussed and possibly it is because of the general teaching within our community that faith comes by hearing and affectionately accepting the gospel. On one occasion, one of our brethren did suggest a few things similar to Calvinism, but he seemed to be happy when, acting as our librarian, I gave him the following article written in 1946. I have not studied this subject, but I would be interested in comments by both sides of this discussion on whether the following article is a reasonable assessment and whether it is helpful in resolving some of the issues.

Calvinism and the Bible Doctrine of Predestination
THE first major protagonists in the predestination controversy, which has raged for centuries, were Augustine and Pelagius. It was Augustine’s point of view that Calvin later adopted, as did also, in their turn, Thomas Aquinas, the Dominicans and the Jansenists in the Catholic Church, Luther with slight modifications, and, among the Methodists, Whitefield. Calvin was opposed by Arminius, whose views correspond more closely with what we believe to be the Bible doctrine than those of the original Pelagius. Others on the Pelagian side were the Jesuits and Wesley.

The Augustinian and Calvinist position stresses man’s utter inability to will or do any good, and insists that God alone can save. He saves by means of grace, which is “effectual” (it does all that is necessary), and “irresistible” (if God chooses to make you the recipient of grace, you have no say in the matter). This irresistibility of grace for the elect entailed predestination: from eternity God had chosen some to receive it and gain life, and had passed over all others. In this God was not unjust, as death was the desert of all. It follows logically that, if Mr. Smith is of the elect, no sin that Mr. Smith commits, however heinous or deliberate, can prevent his gaining eternal life. It was here that Luther diverged from Calvin, maintaining that the grace could be resisted with resulting condemnation. Of course, Calvin would say that, in fact, the elect would not resist it. Calvinism, then, emphasizes basically the absolute, inscrutable and sovereign will of God. Its particular brand of predestination derives from that.

On the other hand, Pelagius emphasized man’s free will, grace coming in as a help, of which man’s striving made him worthy. Arminius insists that repentance and faith are the divinely decreed conditions of life and predestination is merely God’s determination to give eternal life to those whom He foresaw as fulfilling those conditions. (This doubtless is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8; 29–30.) He would, I think, have agreed with this saying of Luther: “—God, foreseeing who will and who will not resist the grace offered, predestinates to life those who are foreseen as believers”.

So much for a brief statement of the rival positions. To attempt in a few minutes even to suggest the Biblical doctrine and where it differs from Calvinism is a rather presumptuous venture. We must at all costs avoid an over-simplification of the problem for our own greater convenience in discussion. We will only try to clarify the issue, and to point a way to the right attitude towards the subject, not even listing the many passages relevant to the various points.

First let us state very briefly what seems to be the two major considerations to be borne in mind:
(1) The Calvinistic doctrine of absolute election, with its implication that many from eternity are passed over and therefore predestined to death, is untenable for Bible believers. We are told unequivocally that God “is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3 : 9). He “will have all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2 : 4). “Whosoever will” is invited to take of the “water of life freely” (Rev. 22: 17). Whatever our final interpretation may be, it must leave room for a God who does not will the death of thousands, but the life of all.
(2) Calvinism insists on pushing its argument to a logical conclusion with results that shock our moral sense and nullify all moral exhortation. The Bible gives the data and does not offer a logical solution. Where it comes nearest to doing so, in Romans 8 and 9, it comes near to Calvinism. Its general teaching, as also the particular teaching of Romans finally, is just the presentation of the data, without a neatly parcelled and pigeon-holed explanation of what the divine wisdom knows is basically an unsolvable problem for finite minds.

The data are chiefly three:
1.GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE. This is limitless. Limit it, and your definition of God needs alteration.
2.GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE. Its exercise might be restrained, but only by God’s will, by His “longsuffering”.
3.MAN’S FREE WILL. It is not question-begging to include this as a datum. To deny free will is to play fast and loose with our own daily experience; to put the blame for Adam’s fall not on serpent, Eve or Adam, but on God Himself; to make Moses a play actor when he appeals to Israel to choose life rather than death; to tear page after page from the prophets as so much beating of the air; to tell the Lord Jesus Christ he was wasting his time in his appeals to come unto him; to erase from Apostolic writings everything that suggests the need for moral exhortations or offers it; and finally—though the sentence could be almost indefinitely prolonged—to cancel out entirely the first condition of life and all the clarion calls to it from Matthew to Revelation, namely, repentance.

Of these three data, in strict logic, (1) and (2) make (3) a mere human illusion. If God has absolute power fully exercised, then what He foresees He also causes or allows, and my freedom in things small or great is only a fancy of mine, and God’s punishment of sin becomes a mockery of justice by merely human standards. It is the objection of strict logic that is anticipated in Rom. 9: 19. Note that Paul’s answer does not deny the logic. All he says is: “You must accept it”. But here he comes nearest to the Calvinist position, emphasizing God’s sovereign will (Rom. 9: 14–24).

There is one other thing we can do with our data. We can say that God has limited His omnipotence to the extent of allowing man free will; in other words that datum 3 is only possible on the assumption of datum 2 having been limited. This leaves us with a slightly easier problem, still finally unsolvable by our finite minds, yet more easily imaginable. It is just possible to imagine that God may from eternity have foreseen all the free choices of free human wills without in any way interfering with their freedom. This will not do in logic, of course: a foreseen free choice must be made, therefore its freedom is illusory. But the whole plan of redemption, with the ideas of law, probation, sin, repentance, prophetic warning and appeal, God’s repenting of evil proposed, His longsuffering, the whole history of man’s declension and rebellion and the prospect of God’s final vindication, do necessitate something, which, for want of better terms, we may call a voluntary, temporary restraint of God’s power.

Here then is our choice: either deny free will and be logical (but also foolish, inasmuch as our choosing to deny free will cannot be free either—we just couldn’t help it) or accept both God’s foreknowledge and our own free will without demanding their logical reconciliation, but retaining for our help towards right choices the whole of God’s Word. This latter is the Bible’s own position. the passages where most emphasis is laid upon God’s sovereign will are followed in the same letter by hosts of passages which demand our belief in free will (Rom. 10: 12, 17; 11 : 14 , 18–19, 22, 25; 12 :1–3, etc.).

The Bible position then is this:
(i) It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.
(ii) It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.
(iii) It admits that, if you demand logic, even your reception of grace is of God’s sovereign mercy.
(iv) It sets as an aim before the Christian absolute identity of will with the Father, but relates the experience of the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 7) and even of Christ himself in the garden, to give the sober reminder that for us that aim is not fully attained. There is always with us conflict.
(v) It also sets before us as an ideal, confidence in our final salvation by God’s grace, to which Paul sometimes attained (2 Tim. 4 : 8) so that salvation can be spoken of as already accomplished (Rom. 8: 30). If that confidence eludes us, because of a sense of our unworthiness, we may be encouraged by remembering that “Ifs” abound even in the most confident parts of Paul’s letters, and that the confidence sometimes eluded him. But we should also remember that it is not a question of our being “good enough” (none of us is that) but of the measure of our trust and hope in His mercy.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Neither you or B57 can refute the opening post. The reason that you cannot refute the opening post is because you can't.

All that you can do is try to discredit me. And you can't really do that either.

The word of God stands strong against false teachers like you and B57 and exposes you for what you are, heretics.

You teach that salvation is by the freewill of man, denying that it's by the Blood of Christ!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Greetings Robert Pate,

I agree with the concept that you advocated. In my fellowship the concept of Calvinism and predestination is rarely discussed and possibly it is because of the general teaching within our community that faith comes by hearing and affectionately accepting the gospel. On one occasion, one of our brethren did suggest a few things similar to Calvinism, but he seemed to be happy when, acting as our librarian, I gave him the following article written in 1946. I have not studied this subject, but I would be interested in comments by both sides of this discussion on whether the following article is a reasonable assessment and whether it is helpful in resolving some of the issues.

Calvinism and the Bible Doctrine of Predestination
THE first major protagonists in the predestination controversy, which has raged for centuries, were Augustine and Pelagius. It was Augustine’s point of view that Calvin later adopted, as did also, in their turn, Thomas Aquinas, the Dominicans and the Jansenists in the Catholic Church, Luther with slight modifications, and, among the Methodists, Whitefield. Calvin was opposed by Arminius, whose views correspond more closely with what we believe to be the Bible doctrine than those of the original Pelagius. Others on the Pelagian side were the Jesuits and Wesley.

The Augustinian and Calvinist position stresses man’s utter inability to will or do any good, and insists that God alone can save. He saves by means of grace, which is “effectual” (it does all that is necessary), and “irresistible” (if God chooses to make you the recipient of grace, you have no say in the matter). This irresistibility of grace for the elect entailed predestination: from eternity God had chosen some to receive it and gain life, and had passed over all others. In this God was not unjust, as death was the desert of all. It follows logically that, if Mr. Smith is of the elect, no sin that Mr. Smith commits, however heinous or deliberate, can prevent his gaining eternal life. It was here that Luther diverged from Calvin, maintaining that the grace could be resisted with resulting condemnation. Of course, Calvin would say that, in fact, the elect would not resist it. Calvinism, then, emphasizes basically the absolute, inscrutable and sovereign will of God. Its particular brand of predestination derives from that.

On the other hand, Pelagius emphasized man’s free will, grace coming in as a help, of which man’s striving made him worthy. Arminius insists that repentance and faith are the divinely decreed conditions of life and predestination is merely God’s determination to give eternal life to those whom He foresaw as fulfilling those conditions. (This doubtless is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8; 29–30.) He would, I think, have agreed with this saying of Luther: “—God, foreseeing who will and who will not resist the grace offered, predestinates to life those who are foreseen as believers”.

So much for a brief statement of the rival positions. To attempt in a few minutes even to suggest the Biblical doctrine and where it differs from Calvinism is a rather presumptuous venture. We must at all costs avoid an over-simplification of the problem for our own greater convenience in discussion. We will only try to clarify the issue, and to point a way to the right attitude towards the subject, not even listing the many passages relevant to the various points.

First let us state very briefly what seems to be the two major considerations to be borne in mind:
(1) The Calvinistic doctrine of absolute election, with its implication that many from eternity are passed over and therefore predestined to death, is untenable for Bible believers. We are told unequivocally that God “is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3 : 9). He “will have all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2 : 4). “Whosoever will” is invited to take of the “water of life freely” (Rev. 22: 17). Whatever our final interpretation may be, it must leave room for a God who does not will the death of thousands, but the life of all.
(2) Calvinism insists on pushing its argument to a logical conclusion with results that shock our moral sense and nullify all moral exhortation. The Bible gives the data and does not offer a logical solution. Where it comes nearest to doing so, in Romans 8 and 9, it comes near to Calvinism. Its general teaching, as also the particular teaching of Romans finally, is just the presentation of the data, without a neatly parcelled and pigeon-holed explanation of what the divine wisdom knows is basically an unsolvable problem for finite minds.

The data are chiefly three:
1.GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE. This is limitless. Limit it, and your definition of God needs alteration.
2.GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE. Its exercise might be restrained, but only by God’s will, by His “longsuffering”.
3.MAN’S FREE WILL. It is not question-begging to include this as a datum. To deny free will is to play fast and loose with our own daily experience; to put the blame for Adam’s fall not on serpent, Eve or Adam, but on God Himself; to make Moses a play actor when he appeals to Israel to choose life rather than death; to tear page after page from the prophets as so much beating of the air; to tell the Lord Jesus Christ he was wasting his time in his appeals to come unto him; to erase from Apostolic writings everything that suggests the need for moral exhortations or offers it; and finally—though the sentence could be almost indefinitely prolonged—to cancel out entirely the first condition of life and all the clarion calls to it from Matthew to Revelation, namely, repentance.

Of these three data, in strict logic, (1) and (2) make (3) a mere human illusion. If God has absolute power fully exercised, then what He foresees He also causes or allows, and my freedom in things small or great is only a fancy of mine, and God’s punishment of sin becomes a mockery of justice by merely human standards. It is the objection of strict logic that is anticipated in Rom. 9: 19. Note that Paul’s answer does not deny the logic. All he says is: “You must accept it”. But here he comes nearest to the Calvinist position, emphasizing God’s sovereign will (Rom. 9: 14–24).

There is one other thing we can do with our data. We can say that God has limited His omnipotence to the extent of allowing man free will; in other words that datum 3 is only possible on the assumption of datum 2 having been limited. This leaves us with a slightly easier problem, still finally unsolvable by our finite minds, yet more easily imaginable. It is just possible to imagine that God may from eternity have foreseen all the free choices of free human wills without in any way interfering with their freedom. This will not do in logic, of course: a foreseen free choice must be made, therefore its freedom is illusory. But the whole plan of redemption, with the ideas of law, probation, sin, repentance, prophetic warning and appeal, God’s repenting of evil proposed, His longsuffering, the whole history of man’s declension and rebellion and the prospect of God’s final vindication, do necessitate something, which, for want of better terms, we may call a voluntary, temporary restraint of God’s power.

Here then is our choice: either deny free will and be logical (but also foolish, inasmuch as our choosing to deny free will cannot be free either—we just couldn’t help it) or accept both God’s foreknowledge and our own free will without demanding their logical reconciliation, but retaining for our help towards right choices the whole of God’s Word. This latter is the Bible’s own position. the passages where most emphasis is laid upon God’s sovereign will are followed in the same letter by hosts of passages which demand our belief in free will (Rom. 10: 12, 17; 11 : 14 , 18–19, 22, 25; 12 :1–3, etc.).

The Bible position then is this:
(i) It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.
(ii) It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.
(iii) It admits that, if you demand logic, even your reception of grace is of God’s sovereign mercy.
(iv) It sets as an aim before the Christian absolute identity of will with the Father, but relates the experience of the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 7) and even of Christ himself in the garden, to give the sober reminder that for us that aim is not fully attained. There is always with us conflict.
(v) It also sets before us as an ideal, confidence in our final salvation by God’s grace, to which Paul sometimes attained (2 Tim. 4 : 8) so that salvation can be spoken of as already accomplished (Rom. 8: 30). If that confidence eludes us, because of a sense of our unworthiness, we may be encouraged by remembering that “Ifs” abound even in the most confident parts of Paul’s letters, and that the confidence sometimes eluded him. But we should also remember that it is not a question of our being “good enough” (none of us is that) but of the measure of our trust and hope in His mercy.

Kind regards
Trevor

False statements, promoting salvation by works of man!
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Neither you or B57 can refute the opening post. The reason that you cannot refute the opening post is because you can't.

All that you can do is try to discredit me. And you can't really do that either.

The word of God stands strong against false teachers like you and B57 and exposes you for what you are, heretics.


The only WHOSOEVER that will believe on Him in John 3:16 for instance, is the one who has first been Born of the Spirit of God and Given Faith which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Unless a person has been Spiritually regenerated in New Birth, they don't have the ability to do anything that pleases God!

Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


So, it's only God's Elect Children Eph. 1:4-5 which shall be given His Spirit in New Birth and do all the things the scriptures command, and please God.

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Greetings Robert Pate,

I agree with the concept that you advocated. In my fellowship the concept of Calvinism and predestination is rarely discussed and possibly it is because of the general teaching within our community that faith comes by hearing and affectionately accepting the gospel. On one occasion, one of our brethren did suggest a few things similar to Calvinism, but he seemed to be happy when, acting as our librarian, I gave him the following article written in 1946. I have not studied this subject, but I would be interested in comments by both sides of this discussion on whether the following article is a reasonable assessment and whether it is helpful in resolving some of the issues.

Calvinism and the Bible Doctrine of Predestination
THE first major protagonists in the predestination controversy, which has raged for centuries, were Augustine and Pelagius. It was Augustine’s point of view that Calvin later adopted, as did also, in their turn, Thomas Aquinas, the Dominicans and the Jansenists in the Catholic Church, Luther with slight modifications, and, among the Methodists, Whitefield. Calvin was opposed by Arminius, whose views correspond more closely with what we believe to be the Bible doctrine than those of the original Pelagius. Others on the Pelagian side were the Jesuits and Wesley.

The Augustinian and Calvinist position stresses man’s utter inability to will or do any good, and insists that God alone can save. He saves by means of grace, which is “effectual” (it does all that is necessary), and “irresistible” (if God chooses to make you the recipient of grace, you have no say in the matter). This irresistibility of grace for the elect entailed predestination: from eternity God had chosen some to receive it and gain life, and had passed over all others. In this God was not unjust, as death was the desert of all. It follows logically that, if Mr. Smith is of the elect, no sin that Mr. Smith commits, however heinous or deliberate, can prevent his gaining eternal life. It was here that Luther diverged from Calvin, maintaining that the grace could be resisted with resulting condemnation. Of course, Calvin would say that, in fact, the elect would not resist it. Calvinism, then, emphasizes basically the absolute, inscrutable and sovereign will of God. Its particular brand of predestination derives from that.

On the other hand, Pelagius emphasized man’s free will, grace coming in as a help, of which man’s striving made him worthy. Arminius insists that repentance and faith are the divinely decreed conditions of life and predestination is merely God’s determination to give eternal life to those whom He foresaw as fulfilling those conditions. (This doubtless is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8; 29–30.) He would, I think, have agreed with this saying of Luther: “—God, foreseeing who will and who will not resist the grace offered, predestinates to life those who are foreseen as believers”.

So much for a brief statement of the rival positions. To attempt in a few minutes even to suggest the Biblical doctrine and where it differs from Calvinism is a rather presumptuous venture. We must at all costs avoid an over-simplification of the problem for our own greater convenience in discussion. We will only try to clarify the issue, and to point a way to the right attitude towards the subject, not even listing the many passages relevant to the various points.

First let us state very briefly what seems to be the two major considerations to be borne in mind:
(1) The Calvinistic doctrine of absolute election, with its implication that many from eternity are passed over and therefore predestined to death, is untenable for Bible believers. We are told unequivocally that God “is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3 : 9). He “will have all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2 : 4). “Whosoever will” is invited to take of the “water of life freely” (Rev. 22: 17). Whatever our final interpretation may be, it must leave room for a God who does not will the death of thousands, but the life of all.
(2) Calvinism insists on pushing its argument to a logical conclusion with results that shock our moral sense and nullify all moral exhortation. The Bible gives the data and does not offer a logical solution. Where it comes nearest to doing so, in Romans 8 and 9, it comes near to Calvinism. Its general teaching, as also the particular teaching of Romans finally, is just the presentation of the data, without a neatly parcelled and pigeon-holed explanation of what the divine wisdom knows is basically an unsolvable problem for finite minds.

The data are chiefly three:
1.GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE. This is limitless. Limit it, and your definition of God needs alteration.
2.GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE. Its exercise might be restrained, but only by God’s will, by His “longsuffering”.
3.MAN’S FREE WILL. It is not question-begging to include this as a datum. To deny free will is to play fast and loose with our own daily experience; to put the blame for Adam’s fall not on serpent, Eve or Adam, but on God Himself; to make Moses a play actor when he appeals to Israel to choose life rather than death; to tear page after page from the prophets as so much beating of the air; to tell the Lord Jesus Christ he was wasting his time in his appeals to come unto him; to erase from Apostolic writings everything that suggests the need for moral exhortations or offers it; and finally—though the sentence could be almost indefinitely prolonged—to cancel out entirely the first condition of life and all the clarion calls to it from Matthew to Revelation, namely, repentance.

Of these three data, in strict logic, (1) and (2) make (3) a mere human illusion. If God has absolute power fully exercised, then what He foresees He also causes or allows, and my freedom in things small or great is only a fancy of mine, and God’s punishment of sin becomes a mockery of justice by merely human standards. It is the objection of strict logic that is anticipated in Rom. 9: 19. Note that Paul’s answer does not deny the logic. All he says is: “You must accept it”. But here he comes nearest to the Calvinist position, emphasizing God’s sovereign will (Rom. 9: 14–24).

There is one other thing we can do with our data. We can say that God has limited His omnipotence to the extent of allowing man free will; in other words that datum 3 is only possible on the assumption of datum 2 having been limited. This leaves us with a slightly easier problem, still finally unsolvable by our finite minds, yet more easily imaginable. It is just possible to imagine that God may from eternity have foreseen all the free choices of free human wills without in any way interfering with their freedom. This will not do in logic, of course: a foreseen free choice must be made, therefore its freedom is illusory. But the whole plan of redemption, with the ideas of law, probation, sin, repentance, prophetic warning and appeal, God’s repenting of evil proposed, His longsuffering, the whole history of man’s declension and rebellion and the prospect of God’s final vindication, do necessitate something, which, for want of better terms, we may call a voluntary, temporary restraint of God’s power.

Here then is our choice: either deny free will and be logical (but also foolish, inasmuch as our choosing to deny free will cannot be free either—we just couldn’t help it) or accept both God’s foreknowledge and our own free will without demanding their logical reconciliation, but retaining for our help towards right choices the whole of God’s Word. This latter is the Bible’s own position. the passages where most emphasis is laid upon God’s sovereign will are followed in the same letter by hosts of passages which demand our belief in free will (Rom. 10: 12, 17; 11 : 14 , 18–19, 22, 25; 12 :1–3, etc.).

The Bible position then is this:
(i) It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.
(ii) It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.
(iii) It admits that, if you demand logic, even your reception of grace is of God’s sovereign mercy.
(iv) It sets as an aim before the Christian absolute identity of will with the Father, but relates the experience of the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 7) and even of Christ himself in the garden, to give the sober reminder that for us that aim is not fully attained. There is always with us conflict.
(v) It also sets before us as an ideal, confidence in our final salvation by God’s grace, to which Paul sometimes attained (2 Tim. 4 : 8) so that salvation can be spoken of as already accomplished (Rom. 8: 30). If that confidence eludes us, because of a sense of our unworthiness, we may be encouraged by remembering that “Ifs” abound even in the most confident parts of Paul’s letters, and that the confidence sometimes eluded him. But we should also remember that it is not a question of our being “good enough” (none of us is that) but of the measure of our trust and hope in His mercy.

Kind regards
Trevor

On the day of Pentecost thousands came to know Christ as their savior through the preaching of the Gospel, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. It is the Gospel that is the power of God into salvation, Romans 1:16. Plus nothing.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER (All, anyone, Everyone) that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

The word "whosoever" which means all, anyone, everyone, does away with the idea that God favors "Some Certain Persons." This is why the scripture says that "God so loves the world." It is only natural for God to love those who love him. If anyone is special to God it is those that are the "whosoever's" that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him and believe that Jesus has provided salvation for everyone and not just him.

Don't look now, Robert, but you have contradicted yourself. First, whosoever is "all" without restriction. Later on, it is {only} "...those...'whosoever's' [sic]...". Which is it - is everyone special to God or only those who believe?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
On the day of Pentecost thousands came to know Christ as their savior through the preaching of the Gospel, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. It is the Gospel that is the power of God into salvation, Romans 1:16. Plus nothing.

You don't believe the Gospel, you don't believe that sinners Christ died for are saved.You teach that sinners Christ shed His Blood for are going to perish in their sins anyways! So you are in unbelief!
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Don't look now, Robert, but you have contradicted yourself. First, whosoever is "all" without restriction. Later on, it is {only} "...those...'whosoever's' [sic]...". Which is it - is everyone special to God or only those who believe?

No contradiction, "whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

After they come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him, they become children of God and are no longer whosoever's.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
No contradiction, "whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

After they come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him, they become children of God and are no longer whosoever's.

And what about all those that don't believe? Are they "special"? Are they part of the "whosoever"?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
You don't believe the Gospel, you don't believe that sinners Christ died for are saved.You teach that sinners Christ shed His Blood for are going to perish in their sins anyways! So you are in unbelief!

I believe what the Bible says. Not what some heretic said back in the 1500's.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
And what about all those that don't believe? Are they "special"? Are they part of the "whosoever"?

No, you cannot put a label on "whosoever" If you do the word looses its meaning.

This is a very important word in the Bible that tells us... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Meaning that salvation is available to everyone.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
No, you cannot put a label on "whosoever" If you do the word looses its meaning.

This is a very important word in the Bible that tells us... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Meaning that salvation is available to everyone.

It doesn't imply (necessarily) that salvation is available to everyone. It merely says that the requirements are the same for everyone who will be saved. If everyone (literally) who (literally) calls the name of the Lord is saved, then what of Jesus saying that NOT all who say "Lord, Lord" to Him will be saved?

But my original point is that whosoever itself takes on limitations by virtue of the phrase that follows it "...believeth in Him...", "...shall call upon the name of the Lord..." etc... So it is not a universal in this sense - if I say "everyone" will be saved, is that the same as "everyone believing" will be saved? Whosoever (in John 3:16) takes on the limitations of the phrase it links up with. So it isn't saying everyone can be saved - it really isn't making a comment on whether it is possible for everyone to be saved or not. It is JUST saying that ALL those who DO BELIEVE will be saved. That's it. Likewise, Romans 10:13 is simply saying ALL those that CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD (which as I point out above is not necessarily just a literal calling out) will be saved. It isn't making a statement about whether or not EVERY LAST PERSON is able to do so (or not).
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
It doesn't imply (necessarily) that salvation is available to everyone. It merely says that the requirements are the same for everyone who will be saved. If everyone (literally) who (literally) calls the name of the Lord is saved, then what of Jesus saying that NOT all who say "Lord, Lord" to Him will be saved?

But my original point is that whosoever itself takes on limitations by virtue of the phrase that follows it "...believeth in Him...", "...shall call upon the name of the Lord..." etc... So it is not a universal in this sense - if I say "everyone" will be saved, is that the same as "everyone believing" will be saved? Whosoever (in John 3:16) takes on the limitations of the phrase it links up with. So it isn't saying everyone can be saved - it really isn't making a comment on whether it is possible for everyone to be saved or not. It is JUST saying that ALL those who DO BELIEVE will be saved. That's it. Likewise, Romans 10:13 is simply saying ALL those that CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD (which as I point out above is not necessarily just a literal calling out) will be saved. It isn't making a statement about whether or not EVERY LAST PERSON is able to do so (or not).


Whosoever means that salvation is available to everyone and not just "some certain persons." Which refutes the Calvinist doctrine that only "some certain persons" will be saved. If salvation is available to whosoever, then all, anyone, everyone, has the opportunity to be saved. It also refutes the Calvinist doctrine that man does not have a free will. If salvation is available to whosoever, meaning everyone, then everyone has the ability to believe and be saved.
 
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