The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[lightninboy]

Romans 11:29 as I already cited.

And one might be wrong, as I just got through explaining. There is no longer any such thing as a Jew (or Gentile) except in the genealogical/biological sense. God will return to Israel again once the fullness of the Gentile has come it but until then their covenant is in abeyance.

Duh, dude, using Romans 11:29 to prove that the Israelites and Apostles must continue the gospel to the circumcision until the last one died is a sick twisting of Scripture, eh?

God hath concluded the Israelites all in unbelief, not that they must continue in the gospel to the circumcision until the last one died.

 

[lightninboy]

For Jerry Shugart:

[/quote=Jerry Shugart]The vast majority of dispensational teachers say the same thing that I am saying.Here are words from the "New Scofield Study Bible":
Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice,through believing the revelation thus far given him"(note at Genesis 1:28).
If you have read any dispensational writers besides Bob Hill and Bob Enyart then you would be aware that they all say that believers were saved before the Cross. All the great dispensational writers,from John Nelson Darby to Sir Robert Anderson,teach that believers were saved before the Cross.[/quote]

I saw C. R. Stam saying that works were required for salvation before Paul.
Name some names of MAD proponents for works required for salvation before Paul.
Name some names of MAD proponents against works required for salvation before Paul.

 

[lightninboy]

NO! Definitely not!

There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. This is a central theme of Paul's ministry.

If there is no longer a difference in the gospel that Jews and Gentiles must believe for salvation, you can't require the Jews to repent, believe, do works of the law, have circumcision and baptism, abide, and endure for salvation during the Great Tribulation.

 

[lightninboy]

Clete Proven Wrong

Clete Proven Wrong

lightninboy has proven Clete wrong.

*David holds up Goliath's head.*

:guitar:

 

[godrulz]

If there is no longer a difference in the gospel that Jews and Gentiles must believe for salvation, you can't require the Jews to repent, believe, do works of the law, have circumcision and baptism, abide, and endure for salvation during the Great Tribulation.

In a dispensational view, you probably could. The Church Age is the Age of Grace. The Tribulation is a renewal of dealing with national Israel and judgment on Gentile nations. The Kingdom was postponed when they crucified the King. God did not abandon His covenants with His people, though the mystery of the Church Age/Body of Christ is ineffect in the interim.

I am not Mid-Acts dispensational, but pre-trib./pre-mill. views do distinguish the plan in the Church Age from God's dealings with Israel in the Tribulation.

Salvation in all covenants is grace/faith based, not based on works or faith and works.

 

[lightninboy]

Dear godrulz buddy,

I think I know where you're coming from.

I seem to remember Acts 2 Dispensationalists saying that the Jews must keep the law during the Great Tribulation.

In fact, you could see on the Scofield chart that the Great Tribulation is not considered in the Age of Grace.

But according to my John 3:16 theory, salvation is always by grace through faith plus nothing.

I refer you to post #199.

 

[lightninboy]

Dear godrulz buddy,

I know it is said that animal sacrifices will start again in Jerusalem, but I refer you to Post #254.

 

[godrulz]

Dear godrulz buddy,

I think I know where you're coming from.

I seem to remember Acts 2 Dispensationalists saying that the Jews must keep the law during the Great Tribulation.

In fact, you could see on the Scofield chart that the Great Tribulation is not considered in the Age of Grace.

But according to my John 3:16 theory, salvation is always by grace through faith plus nothing.

I refer you to post #199.

I agree that salvation is always by grace through faith. Loving obedience, even to the moral law, flows out of this faith. It does not save them, per se.

The issue is loving obedience as a believer vs obeying rituals as an unbeliever to try to be right with God. The latter is religion, not salvific (saving) relationship.

 

[godrulz]

Dear godrulz buddy,

I know it is said that animal sacrifices will start again in Jerusalem, but I refer you to Post #254.

It seems during the millennium there will be some Old Testament continuity in some things. The bottom line still is the reality and fulfillment in Christ Himself, not the shadows/types. There may be some symbolism of a restored temple, but Christ Himself is still the focus and fulfillment.

 

[Damian]

Salvation in all covenants is grace/faith based, not based on works or faith and works.

Dispensationalists will assert that the following passage in James applies to the "Dispensation of the Circumcision," where salvation entails a combination of faith and works. What sayeth you?

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 ¶ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:14-20

 

[Clete]

If there is no longer a difference in the gospel that Jews and Gentiles must believe for salvation, you can't require the Jews to repent, believe, do works of the law, have circumcision and baptism, abide, and endure for salvation during the Great Tribulation.

Exactly!

And this will remain so UNTIL God returns to Israel and their covenant of law. But until then, you are absolutely correct.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Duh, dude, using Romans 11:29 to prove that the Israelites and Apostles must continue the gospel to the circumcision until the last one died is a sick twisting of Scripture, eh?

How so? Because you say it is?

Guess what lightninboy, (You can all say it with me if you like)...

Saying it doesn't make it so.

That is precisely what the verse says. Here! Let me quote it for you...

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

See! No twisting of the meaning of the text or anything! I simply quote the verse and let it stand on it's own two feet!

Let me guess! You think I've taken the verse out of context don't you! HA!

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER IF YOU LIKE! The principle is stated here in verse 29 as proof that everything else Paul is stating is true. Paul is using it to prove the exact same point only in his case he's talking about the entire nation of Israel while I am applying the principle to individuals but its the same principle applied in the same way for the same reason. Just as Israel was cut off because of unbelief, so would have any of the Messianic believers if they had stopped believing but if they persisted in their belief until the end then God would honor His covenant with them precisely because the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.

God hath concluded the Israelites all in unbelief, not that they must continue in the gospel to the circumcision until the last one died.

God didn't cut ALL of Israel off! He didn't cut the twelve apostles off nor any of their believing converts. That's basically the theme of Romans 11.

And the way you word this makes me think you misunderstand something. It isn't that any Israelite that came to believe had to continue in the gospel of circumcision. The only one's that had to remain under that covenant were those specific individuals who came to faith in God while that covenant was still in effect. After God cut the nation of Israel off as a whole and put Israel's covenant in abeyance anyone, including Israelites, who came to believe on Christ as their savior were saved under Paul's gospel and where not to place themselves under the law.

It's easier to see if you look at it in terms of membership. Another name for the gospel of circumcision is the "Kingdom Gospel", it is the gospel that Jesus preached. Once a person accepted that gospel then they became members of that Kingdom - the Kingdom of Israel and would eventually rule and reign with Christ in that Kingdom. On the other hand, those who accepted the Gospel of Grace (i.e. after Israel had been cut off) became members of the Body of Christ and have a heavenly calling, not an Earthly, Kingdom calling. These callings are irrevocable according to Romans 11. Thus just because God changed dispensations doesn't mean that a believers of one dispensation moved into the new dispensation, they didn't; they stayed in the dispensation they began with.

Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Tell me about these reincarnated Israelites, Clete or Bob. Will they have earthly bodies or glorified bodies or what? Maybe Acts 2 Dispensationalism teaches the same thing, but I don't hear much about it.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only "reincarnated" anyone I know anything about is Jesus Christ and the two prophets that will set the whole world a blaze during the tribulation. To the best of my understanding the thousand year reign of Christ will have only mortals as its subjects. Now, after that, when the heavens are earth are replaced with the new Heaven and New Earth and the great city of Israel will descend out of Heaven onto the new Earth, there will be ONLY immortal glorified human beings in that eternal Earthly Kingdom.

Does that clear it up a bit?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Clete, if you have a rule that salvation must be by grace through faith plus works, you must stick to it absolutely

Not if God changes the rules I don't.

Salvation is at God's prerogative. He saves all by grace, some through faith alone, others through faith plus works. Who are you to tell God what, how, when and why He must save anyone He wants to save?

Ha, if there ever was an illustration of grace, it was the story of the thief on the cross!

Google it and see!

Saying it doesn't make it so, even if its Google saying it.

You are committing what is called a hasty generalization fallacy. You cannot make general conclusions based on a single case, especially when that case is clearly an exceptional one. It's not as if the average Jew came to faith while hanging on a cross.

Now please drop this argument. It's just silly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

A question for Bob and Clete:

What were the works in salvation by grace through faith plus works before circumcision and the Law?

This question makes no sense and is unanswerable.

It sounds like you need to read this...

The Twelve Dispensations by Bob Hill

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

For Bob Hill and Clete :

If salvation was proven to you to be actually by grace through faith plus nothing in all dispensations, would you still be MAD?

If a dog lived in your living room, would he fart there?

Does "the mystery" and "the gospel to the circumcision" necessarily mean that salvation by grace through faith plus nothing is only in the Wonderful Dispensation of Grace, and thus Jerry Shugart is whistling Dixie?

Yes. The Bible explicitly states that Paul's gospel was given to Paul by revelation and that it had been kept secret until that time.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Please respond to these last several posts all at once on one post. Otherwise this is going to get very tedious to say the least.

 

[kmoney]

If a dog lived in your living room, would he fart there?

:squint:

 

[lightninboy]

It seems during the millennium there will be some Old Testament continuity in some things. The bottom line still is the reality and fulfillment in Christ Himself, not the shadows/types. There may be some symbolism of a restored temple, but Christ Himself is still the focus and fulfillment.

Israel is supposed to accept Christ as its Messiah during the Great Tribulation, so why would it need to offer sacrifices, etc., for salvation?

Israel had to do it to qualify as God's high priestly nation in the Old Testament, but why have to revert back to that in the Great Tribulation when it doesn't have to do it for salvation in the Church Age?

 

[lightninboy]

Dispensationalists will assert that the following passage in James applies to the "Dispensation of the Circumcision," where salvation entails a combination of faith and works. What sayeth you?

All scripture is profitable. It applies to Jews and Gentiles.

As lowerlevel said, MAD seems to be an ill-fated attempt to justify grace in light of James and Hebrews passages.

 

[godrulz]

Dispensationalists will assert that the following passage in James applies to the "Dispensation of the Circumcision," where salvation entails a combination of faith and works. What sayeth you?

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 ¶ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:14-20

Dispensationalists come in a variety of views. Mid-Acts is a minority position. Luther was also wrong about the book of James (straw man gospel). My Romans vs James thread gives a more traditional understanding of James without resorting to Mid-Acts assumptions.