In Israel?
I thought it was that she was to become pregnant. So, she hadn't been pregnant before?!
I think there is another word that starts with a 'B'?
The virgin birth in Isaiah 7
- Thread starter Elia
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Also in Israel.
It would have been weird if you would have thought anything else when you have to rely on corrupted translations.
But the verse says: "Behold the young woman IS pregnant and IS GIVING BIRTH to a son."
See Youngs Literal Translation. His "virgin" is wrong, but his tenses are right: "Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son,"
There are many other words that start with a "B", see here: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/browse_index/English/Def/BA1.asp
Eliyahu
Isn't the punishment supposed to be death? How then would it be allowed?
Sorry, I guess I'm confused. The word I was thinking of is betulah.
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/hebrew/beth/betulah.htm
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
The punishment for seducing a unmarried virgin is not death, and no, it is not allowed, and yes, sometimes things which are not allowed happen anyway.
Betulah means "virgin", and that is NOT used in Isaiah 7.
Eliyahu
If she cries out she isn't going to face death but he will. What happens if she does not cry out?
Sorry, I may have mixed it up. We are speaking of different passages. The one I was thinking of is actually if the girl is engaged.
Exodus 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
Exodus 22:17 "If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the dowry for virgins.
Deuteronomy 22:23 "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her,
Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:25 "But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
Deuteronomy 22:26 "But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.
Deuteronomy 22:27 "When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.
Deuteronomy 22:28 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
Deuteronomy 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Here I have a few Bible translations, and all of them translate in Isaiah 7:14 "almah" as "virgin". That is of course a mistake, because "almah" means "young woman", and not virgin, see here:
https://sites.google.com/site/excellentmountain/almahtranslations
Eliyahu
Interesting. But has this woman had a child before?
Elia
Well-known member
Would you say it is possible to have children and still be a virgin?
You can always prooftext. It isn't a sign to have a young woman will give birth. That would be normal. It would be a sign from heaven however if a virgin gives birth.
Isaiah says a virgin.
We read "virgin" in the English. My question has to do with the nature of the position that attempts to only take "Hebrew meaning" as has been presented.
Read the passage again. There is a sign, and it may involve the woman but I think it is more about the land and what would happen by a particular time in regard to the boy growing up.
It isn't a sign to say a young woman will give birth. It is a sign to say a virgin will give birth. It is normal that a young woman would give birth. That isn't any kind of sign. Isaiah said a "virgin". The Holy Spirit chooses his words very carefully. It is only perverts that want to mess it up so they can shake their fist at God.
Notice the word "before". Isn't the sign evident there?
Letsargue
New member
Y-H-W-H! ------- We are English, using the ENGLISH VERSIONS! – His name was called Savior / JESUS by the Creator and himself the Creator. - Jesus is the Savior / God is the Savior of the world! – God’s Body is called JESUS / SAVIOR the “Christ” Anointed by the Holy Ghost, who HE IS, and makes up the THREE, and who is God, the Jesus / Savior / CHRIST! . --- GOD is the SAVIOR / JESUS / the CHRIST!
Paul – 050911
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
The proofs are abundant that Isaiah said "young woman", and not "virgin".
And of course, a "virgin birth" is not a sign. Because, how can anybody know the woman really is virgin?
Did the whole village come to peek between the legs of the woman to see if she really was a virgin?
Do we just have to take the word of the woman for it, that she is a virgin? Then we are going to have a whole lot more "virgin births".
The supposed "virgin birth" is not a sign.
The sign in Isaiah 7 is that before the son who was going to be delivered by the girl who was pregnant would grow up, the land of the two kings of whom Achaz was very afraid, would be deserted, their inhabitants led into exile.
THAT was the sign, and nothing else.
And that sign came true, in the days of Isaiah and Achaz, about 700 years before JC.
Eliyahu light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Is. 7:14
Is. 7:14
Understanding the Jewish view and traditional interpretation of the verse in question is helpful, in contrast to later Christian interpretations and assumptions.
Uri Yoseph Ph.D for the Messiah Truth Project does a comprehensive review of Is. 7:14 from both Jewish and Christian perspectives Here and Here.
~*~*~
A proper education on such matters makes for a more informed, wise and intelligent decision in matters of knowledge, affecting translations and applications of faith.
Since the Christological debates over Jesus nature (human/divine ratio?) raged, so much was being invested to prove Jesus 'divinity', and with creative license scribes took their liberties in the writing of the NT in using certain OT passages as messianic proof-texts for Jesus.
Outside traditional Jewish/Christian views, there are other perspectives on the value, symbology or validity of a 'virgin birth', beyond mythology.
pj
Is. 7:14
Understanding the Jewish view and traditional interpretation of the verse in question is helpful, in contrast to later Christian interpretations and assumptions.
Uri Yoseph Ph.D for the Messiah Truth Project does a comprehensive review of Is. 7:14 from both Jewish and Christian perspectives Here and Here.
~*~*~
A proper education on such matters makes for a more informed, wise and intelligent decision in matters of knowledge, affecting translations and applications of faith.
Since the Christological debates over Jesus nature (human/divine ratio?) raged, so much was being invested to prove Jesus 'divinity', and with creative license scribes took their liberties in the writing of the NT in using certain OT passages as messianic proof-texts for Jesus.
Outside traditional Jewish/Christian views, there are other perspectives on the value, symbology or validity of a 'virgin birth', beyond mythology.
pj
Letsargue
New member
Jesus was born of a virgin, and that is the "BODY OF CHRIST" THE CHURCH!!!
The Church was considered A “VIRGIN”, “BECAUSE” She is a YOUNG LADY ESPOUSED TO THE LORD!!!!! – The Church is not an old woman who is not a virgin!! – READ THE BOOK!!!
Paul – 033012
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
a womb to bring forth a child.......
a womb to bring forth a child.......
A wonderful concept, but have you done your homework on the words used in the passage, their meaning in context? My last post with links is one place to start.
Mary may have been chosen because she was 'chaste/pure'(virgin-like), but there is no reason to assume she had to be a virgin to bring forth Jesus, - consider that if God could miraculously impregnate a women without the help of a man, he could just as well cause Jesus to come forth thru seemingly ordinary human male/female relations, and Jesus could still be a special soul incarnating in our world of a divine and human mixture, further 'anointed' for a special mission. The Jewish Messiah is an anointed human.
Additional theological con-fusions of Jesus being 'God' and 'Man' simultaneously were developments debated over and finally 'formalized' in creeds (made 'orthodox') during the first 7 centuries, at least the initial heat of controversies concerning Jesus' nature.
pj
a womb to bring forth a child.......
A wonderful concept, but have you done your homework on the words used in the passage, their meaning in context? My last post with links is one place to start.
Mary may have been chosen because she was 'chaste/pure'(virgin-like), but there is no reason to assume she had to be a virgin to bring forth Jesus, - consider that if God could miraculously impregnate a women without the help of a man, he could just as well cause Jesus to come forth thru seemingly ordinary human male/female relations, and Jesus could still be a special soul incarnating in our world of a divine and human mixture, further 'anointed' for a special mission. The Jewish Messiah is an anointed human.
Additional theological con-fusions of Jesus being 'God' and 'Man' simultaneously were developments debated over and finally 'formalized' in creeds (made 'orthodox') during the first 7 centuries, at least the initial heat of controversies concerning Jesus' nature.
pj
Letsargue
New member
There is nothing that entered into the choosing of Mary other than Mary was the “espoused” WIFE of Joseph; - the TRUE KING OF ISRAEL. – Both the Priests and the King of Israel at the time of Christ were all false. --- John the Baptist was the TRUE High Priest and when John was killed, Jesus was the next in line to be High Priest!! ----- CHECK THAT OUT, I AM NOT WRONG HERE. – All these other geniuses are without the knowledge of the Truth!!
Paul – 033012
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
role play
role play
That's one point of view
- here we are discussing the 'virgin birth' particularly, and the belief-system associated with its 'assumption', which is found only in Matthew's narrative. Whether Jesus was a prophet, priest, apostle, king, messiah, wisdom-teacher, etc....depends on what role's one sees him playing.
pj
role play
That's one point of view
- here we are discussing the 'virgin birth' particularly, and the belief-system associated with its 'assumption', which is found only in Matthew's narrative. Whether Jesus was a prophet, priest, apostle, king, messiah, wisdom-teacher, etc....depends on what role's one sees him playing.pj