The UN demands the US pay Reparations

[Traditio]

So now it's not even American culture and heritage but 'white culture'. lain: Some of the naming is probably a reaction to the 'white culture' oppressing them.

Yeah. As I said: it's a giant one finger salute to us. They are intentionally setting themselves against us.

That's the way they want it? Fine.

Then they have no right to complain when white people refuse to employ people named Shaquan.

Only within your biased mindset. How about you judge people as individuals and not based on stereotypes?

I'll stop judging people based on stereotypes when they stop making it so easy for me to stereotype them. I'll stop stereotyping when stereotyping stops working, stops being generally accurate.

 

[HisServant]

The injustice was slavery. Stopping it was the responsibility of the People who had allowed it, not the people who fell victim to it.

The people that started the ball rolling when it came to slavery were the English.. and they profited more from it than we did because they got the goods they wanted. They ensured that slavery was entrenched into the colonists from day one.

America on the other hand did not make near as much money off of slaves than did England, Europe and the African and Muslim kings that sold the slaves to the Europeans.

So if you are looking for true reparations, you should be looking at Europe and Africa for the money.

 

[Traditio]

Or, perhaps, the parents are a member of a minority group that has its own proud history that is too often erased, and they want their child to be recognized as a member of that minority and celebrated for it.

That's just another way of saying: "A refusal to integrate." They are segregating themselves via the naming of their children.

And yet they were raising all kinds of heck in the 60s about integration. :nono:

 

[kmoney]

Yeah. As I said: it's a giant one finger salute to us. They are intentionally setting themselves against us.

That's the way they want it? Fine.

Then they have no right to complain when white people refuse to employ people named Shaquan.

Why do black people have to cater to your definition of what it means to be assimilated to 'white culture' or 'American culture'?

Ya know, the fact that you changed it from American culture to white culture is very telling. I remember well your past here on TOL, Trad. Try not to return to it.

I'll stop judging people based on stereotypes when they stop making it so easy for me to stereotype them. I'll stop stereotyping when stereotyping stops working, stops being generally accurate.

Would you consider the possibility that there could be a cycle going on here? People like you continue to judge them and they continue to react against it? You aren't even giving them a chance to break out of the stereotype.

 

[genuineoriginal]

What names are 'American'? Has that definition changed between the founding of our nation and now?

If a person's name makes that person distinguishable from a typical American, then that person's name shows that the person is not assimilated into the American culture.

_____
Cultural assimilation is the process by which a person or a group's language and/or culture come to resemble those of another group. The term is used to refer to both individuals and groups, and in the latter case it can refer to either immigrant diasporas or native residents that come to be culturally dominated by another society. Assimilation may involve either a quick or gradual change depending on circumstances of the group. Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from members of the other group. Whether or not it is desirable for an immigrant group to assimilate is often disputed by both members of the group and those of the dominant society.
_____​

Even if they are attempting to promote a different culture, how is that relevant to hiring someone for a job? Particularly because people don't choose their own names?

If you want to be employed by an employer that is from a culture different than the one you are from, you must show a willingness to be assimilated into that culture or show that you can be integrated with that culture.
If your name shows you reject that other culture, then expect that the people hiring think you want separation or marginalization, and would not be a good fit for the culture of their organization.

_____
Acculturation
The fourfold model categorizes acculturation strategies along two dimensions. The first dimension concerns the retention or rejection of an individual's minority or native culture (i.e. "Is it considered to be of value to maintain one's identity and characteristics?"). The second dimension concerns the adoption or rejection of the dominant group or host culture ("Is it considered to be of value to maintain relationships with the larger society?") From this, four acculturation strategies emerge.
Assimilation occurs when individuals adopt the cultural norms of a dominant or host culture, over their original culture.
Separation occurs when individuals reject the dominant or host culture in favor of preserving their culture of origin. Separation is often facilitated by immigration to ethnic enclaves.
Integration occurs when individuals are able to adopt the cultural norms of the dominant or host culture while maintaining their culture of origin. Integration leads to, and is often synonymous with biculturalism.
Marginalization occurs when individuals reject both their culture of origin and the dominant host culture.
_____​

Are people who eat ethnic food also rejecting American culture? What about clothing? I think you are too narrow in how you view acceptance or rejection of 'American culture and heritage'.

You are being too narrow in your suppositions.

_____
Americanization is the process of an immigrant to the United States of America becoming a person who shares American values, beliefs and customs and is assimilated into American society. This process typically involves learning English and adjusting to American culture, and customs, while keeping the old foods and religion. The ethnic groups undergoing Americanization not only retained their traditional cuisines, but they also spread to the wider American public for their taste of pizza, bagels and tacos.
_____​

 

[rexlunae]

The people that started the ball rolling when it came to slavery were the English.. and they profited more from it than we did because they got the goods they wanted. They ensured that slavery was entrenched into the colonists from day one.

America on the other hand did not make near as much money off of slaves than did England, Europe and the African and Muslim kings that sold the slaves to the Europeans.

So if you are looking for true reparations, you should be looking at Europe and Africa for the money.

I'm not letting England off the hook. They may well be liable for some reparations. But it's no defense against a liability that someone else is on the hook for more, and a lot of the liability occurred in colonies (such as the American colonies), and more reasonably falls mostly upon the nations that were formed from them, such as the US, as the people who profited from slavery were mostly in those places. Slavery wasn't all that common in England itself in recent times.

 

[kmoney]

If a person's name makes that person distinguishable from a typical American, then that person's name shows that the person is not assimilated into the American culture.

_____
Cultural assimilation is the process by which a person or a group's language and/or culture come to resemble those of another group. The term is used to refer to both individuals and groups, and in the latter case it can refer to either immigrant diasporas or native residents that come to be culturally dominated by another society. Assimilation may involve either a quick or gradual change depending on circumstances of the group. Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from members of the other group. Whether or not it is desirable for an immigrant group to assimilate is often disputed by both members of the group and those of the dominant society.
_____​

If you want to be employed by an employer that is from a culture different than the one you are from, you must show a willingness to be assimilated into that culture or show that you can be integrated with that culture.
If your name shows you reject that other culture, then expect that the people hiring think you want separation or marginalization, and would not be a good fit for the culture of their organization.

_____
Acculturation
The fourfold model categorizes acculturation strategies along two dimensions. The first dimension concerns the retention or rejection of an individual's minority or native culture (i.e. "Is it considered to be of value to maintain one's identity and characteristics?"). The second dimension concerns the adoption or rejection of the dominant group or host culture ("Is it considered to be of value to maintain relationships with the larger society?") From this, four acculturation strategies emerge.
Assimilation occurs when individuals adopt the cultural norms of a dominant or host culture, over their original culture.
Separation occurs when individuals reject the dominant or host culture in favor of preserving their culture of origin. Separation is often facilitated by immigration to ethnic enclaves.
Integration occurs when individuals are able to adopt the cultural norms of the dominant or host culture while maintaining their culture of origin. Integration leads to, and is often synonymous with biculturalism.
Marginalization occurs when individuals reject both their culture of origin and the dominant host culture.
_____​

You are being too narrow in your suppositions.

_____
Americanization is the process of an immigrant to the United States of America becoming a person who shares American values, beliefs and customs and is assimilated into American society. This process typically involves learning English and adjusting to American culture, and customs, while keeping the old foods and religion. The ethnic groups undergoing Americanization not only retained their traditional cuisines, but they also spread to the wider American public for their taste of pizza, bagels and tacos.
_____​

The question is what defines assimilation. Why do you put names on one side and food and religion on the other?

Why does someone eating Chinese food not make them distinguishable but someone named 'Shaq' does?

 

[Traditio]

Why do black people have to cater to your definition of what it means to be assimilated to 'white culture' or 'American culture'?

It's all parasitic upon white culture. They don't name their children "Shaquan" because that's an historically acceptable black name. No. They name their child anything and everything, just so long as it's not a "normal" white name. Seriously. Google "strange black names" or something like that.

I've heard of a black child being named "orange jello (pronounced "orahn-jelo")."

A mexican names his child "Jorge" because that's a mexican name.
An arab names his child "Zayed" because that's an Arabic name.
Black people name their children "Shaquan" to spite us.

Well, as I said: if that's the way they want to play it. To heck with them.

Would you consider the possibility that there could be a cycle going on here? People like you continue to judge them and they continue to react against it? You aren't even giving them a chance to break out of the stereotype.

Of course I'm giving them the chance to break out of the stereotype. All he has to do is go down to the court house and change his name. Then, of course, he can pull his pants up, turn his music down, and listen to something other than hip hop. And then, of course, he can start speaking proper English like he learned in school...preferably at a reasonable volume, i.e., in an "indoors voice." Ain't no reason to howl like wild animals from across the room.

Unless and until then? I want nothing to do with those people.

 

[rexlunae]

That's just another way of saying: "A refusal to integrate." They are segregating themselves via the naming of their children.

There's no requirement that people from other cultures fully assimilate into the majority culture to be considered full citizens, nor should there be. And people of other cultures who come here, especially those who were brought here against their wills, have a right to preserve their traditions.

And yet they were raising all kinds of heck in the 60s about integration. :nono:

Integration in terms of the fairness that the culture shows to them. And anyway, a black person could change their name, they could change their cultural practices, but they can't change their family history and they can't change their skin color. Therefore, full integration can't be premised upon full assimilation, or they will never be fully integrated.

 

[kmoney]

If a person's name makes that person distinguishable from a typical American, then that person's name shows that the person is not assimilated into the American culture.

_____
Cultural assimilation is the process by which a person or a group's language and/or culture come to resemble those of another group. The term is used to refer to both individuals and groups, and in the latter case it can refer to either immigrant diasporas or native residents that come to be culturally dominated by another society. Assimilation may involve either a quick or gradual change depending on circumstances of the group. Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from members of the other group. Whether or not it is desirable for an immigrant group to assimilate is often disputed by both members of the group and those of the dominant society.
_____​

If you want to be employed by an employer that is from a culture different than the one you are from, you must show a willingness to be assimilated into that culture or show that you can be integrated with that culture.
If your name shows you reject that other culture, then expect that the people hiring think you want separation or marginalization, and would not be a good fit for the culture of their organization.

_____
Acculturation
The fourfold model categorizes acculturation strategies along two dimensions. The first dimension concerns the retention or rejection of an individual's minority or native culture (i.e. "Is it considered to be of value to maintain one's identity and characteristics?"). The second dimension concerns the adoption or rejection of the dominant group or host culture ("Is it considered to be of value to maintain relationships with the larger society?") From this, four acculturation strategies emerge.
Assimilation occurs when individuals adopt the cultural norms of a dominant or host culture, over their original culture.
Separation occurs when individuals reject the dominant or host culture in favor of preserving their culture of origin. Separation is often facilitated by immigration to ethnic enclaves.
Integration occurs when individuals are able to adopt the cultural norms of the dominant or host culture while maintaining their culture of origin. Integration leads to, and is often synonymous with biculturalism.
Marginalization occurs when individuals reject both their culture of origin and the dominant host culture.
_____​

You are being too narrow in your suppositions.

_____
Americanization is the process of an immigrant to the United States of America becoming a person who shares American values, beliefs and customs and is assimilated into American society. This process typically involves learning English and adjusting to American culture, and customs, while keeping the old foods and religion. The ethnic groups undergoing Americanization not only retained their traditional cuisines, but they also spread to the wider American public for their taste of pizza, bagels and tacos.
_____​

A follow up on this.....

Language is the only thing mentioned that I can mostly agree with. But I put language in a different category than the others because language is how we communicate and a society needs to be able to communicate effectively to get along.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Slavery is widely recognized as a crime against humanity

Slavery is not a crime against humanity.

Slavery was instituted thousands of years ago as the most humane way to deal with the survivors of war and with debtors.

The alternative to slavery was death.

I am sure even someone as liberal as yourself would say that genocide is a crime against humanity.
I am also sure even someone as liberal as yourself would say executing people for not repaying debts is also a crime against humanity.

Would you send the bill for World War II to the Jews, too?

Are you claiming the Jews caused World War II, you disgusting racist?
The causes of World War II are fairly well documented, and the people responsible are the Italians, Japanese, and Germans.

_____
Among the causes of World War II were Italian fascism in the 1920s, Japanese militarism and invasions of China in the 1930s, and especially the political takeover in 1933 of Germany by Hitler and his Nazi Party and its aggressive foreign policy.
_____​

The injustice was slavery.

Yes, the cause of the American Civil War can be traced to conflicts over slavery.

_____
Historians debating the origins of the American Civil War focus on the reasons why seven Southern states declared their secession from the United States (the Union), why they united to form the Confederate States of America (the "Confederacy"), and why the North refused to let them go. While textbooks today all state that conflicts over slavery caused the war, they disagree sharply regarding which kinds of conflict—ideological, economic, political, or social—was most important.
_____​

Since the war was over whether the slaves should be freed or not, the descendants of the slaves owe a debt for the war that hasn't been repaid.

 

[Traditio]

There's no requirement that people from other cultures fully assimilate into the majority culture to be considered full citizens, nor should there be. And people of other cultures who come here, especially those who were brought here against their wills, have a right to preserve their traditions.

You know any Africans named "Shaquan"? I don't. Their names, their culture, etc: it's all one massive counter-culture. It's a protest against whites.

It's basically the same reason why black people are always whining about slavery, reparations...even "educated" blacks flock like flies to stupid courses of study like "African American Studies" and that kind of nonsense (all, of course, so that they can put on airs of education when they whine about how bad white people are).

It's all one giant protest, one giant affront against white people.

Whatever. They want to do that? That's their prerogative. But they shouldn't expect white people to employ them.

Integration in terms of the fairness that the culture shows to them.

They don't like it? Again: there's always Africa.

And anyway, a black person could change their name, they could change their cultural practices,

Yes. Yes they can. I'll be waiting.

And just so we're on the same page: the letter "r" isn't pronounced like the word "aura." To my mind, the correct pronunciation of the alphabet should be a prerequisite for voting.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So now it's not even American culture and heritage but 'white culture'. lain: Some of the naming is probably a reaction to the 'white culture' oppressing them.

People named in an attempt to show separation and rejection of the American culture should not expect to be welcomed with open arms.

I don't think the American culture and heritage and ethic is determined by someone's name. :nono:

It is a mistake to think that people will not judge what culture you are in by your name.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The question is what defines assimilation.

It was highlighted.
Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from members of the other group.

Why do you put names on one side and food and religion on the other?

Why does someone eating Chinese food not make them distinguishable but someone named 'Shaq' does?

Which of the following is put on every resume or job application:

• Your religion.
• What type of food you eat.
• Your name.

 

[genuineoriginal]

A follow up on this.....

Language is the only thing mentioned that I can mostly agree with. But I put language in a different category than the others because language is how we communicate and a society needs to be able to communicate effectively to get along.

Have you ever heard this from a telephone voice menu system?
"para Espanol o prima dos"

This is a sign of a large group of people that have refused to assimilate.

 

[Traditio]

Have you ever heard this from a telephone voice menu system?
"para Espanol o prima dos"

This is a sign of a large group of people that have refused to assimilate.

Yup. Ship them back to Mexico! :madmad:

Incidentally: an excellent reason to vote for Trump. He might actually do something about all of this.

 

[This Charming Manc]

You want to do that to all the white Americans who refuse assimilate too?

Yup. Ship them back to Mexico! :madmad:

Incidentally: an excellent reason to vote for Trump. He might actually do something about all of this.

 

[Traditio]

You want to do that to all the white Americans who refuse assimilate too?

Nonsense question. An unassimilated white American sounds like a contradiction of terms to me.

Unless he was raised by nonwhites. Then no, I recommend, not deportation, but re-education.

 

[kmoney]

People named in an attempt to show separation and rejection of the American culture should not expect to be welcomed with open arms.

You have yet to show that what someone is named shows an acceptance or rejection of American culture, should be discriminated against, or that they'd be a bad employee.

It is a mistake to think that people will not judge what culture you are in by your name.

Maybe you're the one making a mistake.

 

[kmoney]

It was highlighted.
Full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from members of the other group.

That quote doesn't help. Why does someone eating Chinese food pass the indistinguishable test but someone's name doesn't?

Which of the following is put on every resume or job application:

• Your religion.
• What type of food you eat.
• Your name.

Name. I fail to see the relevance though.