ECT The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

[Clete]

You have not rightly described any of my beliefs . .

You're lying, Nang!

I've been debating this stuff for decades and have been debating you for years and years as well. I know what you believe because you've told me, you and your husband both.

:chuckle:

Sure . . I should renounce my beliefs just because you do not comprehend the Truth and misrepresent the Truth to which I testify?

Nonsense . . .

It is your doctrine that is nonsense, Nang and I can tell that you know it. You'll never admit it to me or even to yourself but you can tell that what you believe makes no sense. Everyone can tell that what you believe makes no sense.

No, you deny the divine attribute of omniscience, altogether.

I deny Augustinian (Greek philosophical) omniscience but fully accept the biblical teaching that God knows everything that is knowable that He wants to know. I base my doctrine on what the bible says, not on the philosophy of Greek homosexual philosophers who enjoyed the 'company' of young boys.

Reformers (who you insist on labeling "Calvinists") believe and teach the attributes of God, which you Open Theists deny.

Reformed theology teaches Calvinism. They are therefore Calvinist. That's what the term means and the only reason you don't like it is because I found a list of quotes from the original source of your doctrine that you don't like the sound of but cannot bring yourself to deny. It's flat out hysterical!

Calvinists teach the attributes of Aristotle's god, not the attributes of Abraham's God.

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”​

Reformers highly respect the fruits of Calvin's teachings, but none of us claim to be the disciples of any man, but followers of Jesus Christ, only.

No one has suggested that you worship Calvin only that you believe his doctrine, which is what the word "Calvinist" means. I could call you an Augustinian but there's a lot of Catholic baggage that could be attached to that term that would not apply and so while Augustinian would fit in regards to your Theology Proper, Calvinism fits the whole of your doctrine and is thus the better term.

I know of no Reformer who is ashamed of John Calvin, but I know of no Reformers who limit their testimony to his works alone.

None of you here on TOL distanced yourself from Calvin by one inch until some of us Open Theists began to quote Calvin whenever you'd act like we didn't know what we were talking about. Then you suddenly wanted to hold Calvin at arm's length.

I cringe and am embarrassed by any and all who claim to follow Bob Enyart and extoll his book "The Plot" over the works of the early church fathers and beyond the Holy Scriptures. . . like you unabashedly do.

This was a stupid thing to say.

Find a post where I've quoted Bob Enyart's book. They exist but not in large numbers. Bob's book isn't about Open Theism, it's about Acts 9 Dispensationalism and when I debate Acts 9 Dispensationalism I quote Paul's epistles not Bob's book. Bob did not come up with Acts 9 Dispensationalism and his book is by no means the only book written to establish it but I am not at all ashamed of a single word in Bob's book as you clearly are of Calvin's words.

Find me a single point in Bob's book that is not fully established with rationally sound, biblical arguments and I'll drop that point from my belief.

So be quiet accusing others of being disciples of mere men. You are guilty of such, and have no grounds to accuse others of your own faults.

I have not accused you of anything other than being a Calvinist, which you are and which you do not even deny!

Go ahead and find a quote from Bob and ask me whether I agree with it or not! I'll give you an immediate, straight, and probably one syllable answer.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

The passage in the OP claims this ... not me!

"... they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell.
That is the pay these teachers will have for their sin."

"They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness ..."

The following from the OP applies to both false teachers
and those who have been deceived by them and follow them ...

"And when a person has escaped from the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before. It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited,
and a pig is washed only to come back and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is
with those who turn again to their sin.”

When I post some comment, I am parroting what Scripture says.
Without God's word, everyone is a total spiritual idiot.
Some people escape this, by openly listening to
Scripture and the Holy Spirit (which always agree).

But how do we escape from darkness in the first place?

Warning: Loaded Question.


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[ZacharyB]

But how do we escape from darkness in the first place?
Warning: Loaded Question.

But that ain't what we're talkin' about.
We're talkin' about those who go back into the darkness!
Can't talk about everything at da same time.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

But that ain't what we're talkin' about.
We're talkin' about those who go back into the darkness!
Can't talk about everything at da same time.

I don't know your convictions, but to read that scripture carnally is to tread on the ground of the unpardonable sin.

The light casts out the darkness.

That light shines on all men, because the Spirit is afforded the ability to consort with sinful man by the work of Jesus our Christ, Lord and God.

Jesus cast the demons out on Calvery and to judge any human being by carnal standards of Moses in any way is to judge the One who is sinless that wore the sins of every human being past, present and future.

If one knows the blessed WAY and turns from it to be recaptured by Moses and Death, they become hardened.

The judgment they cast is like beating a lesser debtor.

Above all, it is condemning the Forgiving Spirit of Christ.

It's like saying, "The one who casts out demons does so by the power of the Prince of demons."

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[ZacharyB]

I don't know your convictions, but to read that scripture carnally
is to tread on the ground of the unpardonable sin.

You're out of your mind.
All I do is quote NT Scripture, and you argue against it and me!
You need to reconcile ALL of the NT Scriptures together.
Wouldn't that be a great idea!

I'm just guessing that this applies to you ...
1 Peter 2:22 "That is the way it is (i.e. eternal death)
with those who turn again to their sin."

That's why you argue so vehemently against verses that you don't like!

 

[Crucible]

The unpardonable sin- 'blasphemy of the Spirit' is to have people believe a distortion of God's Word to have them stumble or suffer.

For example, extorting people for money by driving biblical fear in them. A number of the pharisees did this, and this was no doubt who Jesus was referring to.

 

[ZacharyB]

The unpardonable sin- 'blasphemy of the Spirit'
is to have people believe a distortion of God's Word
to have them stumble or suffer.

Sorry, you are way off base here.
This specifically refers to attributing the Spirit's miracles to Satan!
Short and simple ... not complicated.

 

[Crucible]

Sorry, you are way off base here.
This specifically refers to attributing the Spirit's miracles to Satan!
Short and simple ... not complicated.

Sorry, but what you stated is a little something called a 'cliche' which throws people 'off base'.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

You're out of your mind.
All I do is quote NT Scripture, and you argue against it and me!
You need to reconcile ALL of the NT Scriptures together.
Wouldn't that be a great idea!

I'm just guessing that this applies to you ...
1 Peter 2:22 "That is the way it is (i.e. eternal death)
with those who turn again to their sin."

That's why you argue so vehemently against verses that you don't like!

No Zachary,

I do indeed admit that I am a forgiven Sinner and I do admit that I still sin, but I never teach that sin is profitable.

Shall we sin that Grace might abound?

Yet, why did sinners get Jesus, while self righteous people received the warning of this passage by Jesus?

Why does the New Testament say that if you say you have no sin, the truth is not in you?

Why did Jesus talk about adulatory when he spoke to the Pharisees?

Be careful to carnally teach from the bible. It is a Spiritual document that saves, but when read in the vanity of doctrines of men that would proclaim themselves righteous without Jesus in the flesh, or righteous in the flesh with Jesus, they become light houses that run many ships aground.


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[ZacharyB]

Be careful to carnally teach from the bible.

It is very easy to claim that everyone except you
reads/teaches the Bible carnally, isn't it?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove it?
How about a 2-sentence summary of Romans 6 for our edification?

 

[Crucible]

If you really considered all the scriptures at large, you'd be Reformed- Calvinism is incontrovertible when looking at the whole of the Bible- it's the gospel behind the gospel; the framework of all of it.

So, don't go talking about you 'hold all scripture' if you have some atrocious dogma.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

It is very easy to claim that everyone except you
reads/teaches the Bible carnally, isn't it?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove it?
How about a 2-sentence summary of Romans 6 for our edification?

Many speak as I do.

Why must I do so with another scripture, when you don't see what I have said about the very one you just posted?

I will do this one thing for you, and you will turn and rend me, but I will speak here once more.


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

It is very easy to claim that everyone except you
reads/teaches the Bible carnally, isn't it?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove it?
How about a 2-sentence summary of Romans 6 for our edification?

I'm going verse by verse and in another thread right now.

No 2 sentences, but I'll go verse by verse.

To Summarize in two sentences could bare twisting, one way or the other. I'm not one for that.

Here's the first 5 verses. I'll be back with more until I'm done.

I've given my word, so I will finish this here.

Luther illuminated what Paul was saying when He said, the just shall live by faith alone.

Paul and Luther had the issue of followers taking his hard teaching that Moses is no longer in our walk of the New Wine and suggesting that we should utterly sin to the point of shortening our lives. These people were coined by Luther as Antinomians.

As Judaizers struggle to incorporate works of flesh, founded on Moses, into our salvation, the antinomians taught that the more we sin, the sooner we will see God!

Paul had to balance the two teachings into the matter, and killed both birds in all such verses.

Romans 6

1 What should we say then? Should we continue in sin so that grace may multiply?

.............In contrast to the grace that covers us forgiven sinners that sin, Paul was emphasizing that grace never changes and that to amplify sin in our life purposely, would be of NO profit.

This covered the concept that Paul had exquisitely explained that we are free from ALL of Moses by Jesus. Salvation is based on Faith, Hope and Love. (Jesus, Alone)

Paul didn't want this message encouraging people to go rape, kill and pillage with the idea that it doesn't matter. Love is easily transgressed by ill sin against others as it is by judging self or others by Moses. Everyone has their own struggles, and this is the state of dying flesh.

To purposely increase sin in our life, because of our utter freedom could bring us back to a state of spiritual blindness and callousness towards our fellow man.

2*Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

..............We are only dead to sin by Jesus. We are dead, and the Father sees His Son in our place, when we step before him. Though we are sinners forgiven that still struggle and sin, Jesus sets us free by standing in our place as our propitiation.

3*Or are you unaware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

..............We are dead and ALL our life debt of transgressions are indeed gone. Jesus is lovingly in our place at the judgment of the cross. His resurrection is our Hope.

4*Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in a new way of life.

............We are creatures of the new covenant command to Love all, void of judgment by Moses. Even the people that many band together and judge are considered least, yet God commanded we treat them as if they were Him. He wore their sins, so judging them is judging Him.

5*For if we have been joined with Him in the likeness of His death, we will certainly also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

...........This reference isn't likeness of His Spiritual Flesh of perfection Until 1 Corinthians 15 is complete. (Glory to Glory at resurrection. Because Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 and called us corruptible now, but incorruptible upon newness of spiritual resurrection to the Physical-Spiritual dwelling Kingdom of God, we know this is his intent.

However, if we trash any of God's creations that He died for while we are forgiven in our corrupt flesh... That's all of God's children according to John 3:17 (World in Greek is Kosmos, meaning ALL created children of God and especially all children of Eve.).... If we do not show Love to all, we are breaking the new covenant and denying He who Loved us first, just as we are


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

6*For we know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that sin’s dominion over the body may be abolished, so that we may no longer be enslaved to sin,

...............This is the Law of Moses side of things that explains that..... Well, let's hear it from Paul;

Colossians 2

.............12*Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13*And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses. 14*He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. 15*He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; He triumphed over them by Him.

And again......

............Romans 4

............13*For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14*If those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made empty and the promise is canceled. 15*For the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.

.......(You can hear that Galatians warning against holding any to Moses!)

7*since a person who has died is freed from sin’s claims.

...........1 Corinthians 15:

55*
Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?
56*
Now the sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law.
57*
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ!

...........Jesus took the Law of Moses and fulfilled it for us with His perfection, so it cannot testify against us through the accuser's pointing finger at our current state of forgiven sin and struggle, covered by His imputed perfection.

8*Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him,

........We indeed have Christ within us in His Spirit form. He is our counselor. He is not responsible for our sin. He has taken the charge of all our sin, past, present and future and worn it unto death, though He was sinless, so we who are sinners, can where His perfection before the Father.

..........2 Corinthians 5:21

He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

9*because we know that Christ, having been raised from the dead, will not die again. Death no longer rules over Him.

...... We have the promise of resurrection and hope in His resurrection.

10*For in light of the fact that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in light of the fact that He lives, He lives to God.

.......... Though the Spiritually Wealthy Flesh of God died, The Spirit of God Lived and Rose in The Glorified Flesh of Jesus, who is the Glory of and to God.

11*So, you too consider yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

........... We are now dead, in the tomb with Jesus, but awaiting our resurrection when it comes.

12*Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires.

....Sin can draw us back the the hardness of Moses by spiritually blinding us to become proud in our flesh. This is the essential Sin of the dark prince, with a fading kingdom of lies and dust. Now that Jesus has removed the ability of Satan to impute our separation from God with Moses, He has to deceive more than ever.

....... Under grace, we must extend grace as Jesus did and does to us. To judge others by Moses would place us back under Moses, and if we are guilty of one point of Moses, we are guilty and condemned by all of it. If we use our freedom to relish in sin with the idea that it doesn't hurt us, our lives will become ruin and our ability to bear witness of the Love and Grace of God will become silenced by our hurting others in any way!

13*And do not offer any parts of it to sin as weapons for unrighteousness. But as those who are alive from the dead, offer yourselves to God, and all the parts of yourselves to God as weapons for righteousness.

........... Though this refers to physical Sin on a small level, it is warning us to not impute our progress in Christ against other believers or non believers, because that would be doing Satan's job for him. To judge by Moses is satan's greatest lie. How can one lose salvation, based on a Law that has been signed, sealed, fulfilled and filed away, by the blood of GOD?

14*For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

.......... Grace and Love are our Light through Jesus, Sin and Moses have no authority over us any longer!

.........God can always chastise a wayward believer or unbelieving sinner, but the self righteous are blind, though they claim to see. They are blind guides, leading the blind.

......... Better a forgiven, honest sinner of Love and Grace..... Kind of like "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me"...... Than a self righteous blind guide that empowers the lies of Satan and binds people to the fulfilled Law of Moses and teaches others to judge forgiven humanity, Loved by Jesus!

........ That self righteous jazz is the pit of death and the hardening of the heart to the Spirit.


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

15*What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!

............So now that we are free, should we go to the closest orgy and knock over a couple banks?

NOOOOOOOO!

16*Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey—either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?

.......The Spirit of God guides the walk of each believer and works in His (Jesus's) time alone. We all have unique walks, but it is hammered in that Love is our highest call and God makes it clear that Love to ALL is as Loving Him.

........Love does not Judge! Love does not condemn! Love doesn't rejoice in evil, but it is Long Suffering and full of hope!

17*But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were transferred to,

......By simply believing in the unconditional Love of God, we are changed from selfish, hateful people to Loving people that become extensions of God's Love to all, and our actual pattern of life naturally changes by the work of God within us.

......Does this make us better than others? Nope! We are to count ourselves lower than the least and servant to all out of Love, void of Judgment and condemnation.

....Does this mean we are magically without sin. An honest follower of Jesus will boldly answer NO and thanks be to God. For by the Grace of God alone, there go I.

.....1st Corinthians 15:

........But by God's grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God's grace that was with me.

....... Spiritual Pride is one of the devil's most effective tools.

18*and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.

........ We throw ourselves at God to be His slaves, to proclaim His goodness alone. We no longer, selfishly walk with our eyes on ourselves, but elevate our minds and eyes to Jesus. His provision of Love, conforms our sinful bodies to be vessels that carry His Perfect, Unconditional Love.

...... 2nd Corinthians 12:9

........But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me.

19*I am using a human analogy because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you offered the parts of yourselves as slaves to moral impurity, and to greater and greater lawlessness, so now offer them as slaves to righteousness, which results in sanctification.

........ Paul explains that our flesh is weak and it fails, but we are elevated in character to become Loving Disciples of the One who Loved all sinners so much, He gave His life for them!

....... Though we are actually just forgiven sinners that are weak, Jesus manages to mold us into vassals of the fruits of the glorious Spirit of Christ.

....... Any good that grows in us is God and any slip ups and struggles simply point to our Need for Him and His binding Love that keeps us in our true Vine.

20*For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from allegiance to righteousness.

....... As we once were ensnared by death and condemnation through distrust in Jesus, now we are freed by His Love and can't keep our eyes off of our blessed Jesus!

........ The Spirit of Christ uses our damaged flesh to pour His Spirit of Love into the entire world! This is the Love that overcomes the darkness of hate that is devouring the entire world!

21*So what fruit was produced then from the things you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death.

........Paul is explaining that our shameful deeds will completely lead to nothing. They profit nothing. They are a waste of our time! Whether we were under the Law of Moses and attempted to Save ourselves by fleshly effort and judged others, or we hurt ourselves and others with wicked deeds, those deeds will be erased when we perish from this kingdom of dust.

....... Only focusing on Jesus is our hope! Focusing on His Love is profitable and sharing His Love to the entire world, despite anyone's condition is even more profitable.

...... It is more blessed to give than receive to our soul after all. We are wired to love others and experience Joy from it!

22*But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification —and the end is eternal life!

.......... The Spirit of Love bears the fruit of the Kingdom in more ways than can be written. Love heals the broken hearted and sets the captives free!

23*For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

......... So, the ugly truth is that we have all fallen and are fallen and there is none Good, no, not one, but God! We are condemned to death! But thanks be to Jesus Christ who loves sinners as they are and sees what we will be in His kingdom, for none Love as He and None pour Grace out as abundantly as He.

........ He really is our EVERYTHING!


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[Nameless.In.Grace]

It is very easy to claim that everyone except you
reads/teaches the Bible carnally, isn't it?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove it?
How about a 2-sentence summary of Romans 6 for our edification?

If God had wanted Romans 6 summed up in 2 Sentences, I'm pretty sure He would have had it written that way.


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[jamie]

Jesus took the Law of Moses and fulfilled it for us with His perfection, so it cannot testify against us through the accuser's pointing finger at our current state of forgiven sin and struggle, covered by His imputed perfection.

If perfection can be imputed why wasn't it imputed to Jesus who learned obedience through suffering.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

If perfection can be imputed why wasn't it imputed to Jesus who learned obedience through suffering.

So, that's the one thing that I will agree with. Our stubbornness gets us a free ticket to the school of hard knocks.

However, our Job is faith, hope and Love.

His Desire was the Father's desire that none should perish, but all of His children be saved.

In that, He is no dead beat Dad. All means He Loves ALL. [emoji106]

Sure, some will reject Him to His face, but He accomplished the great work.

He is indeed wonderful, beyond compare.

We indeed grow Spiritually through suffering. Only, we are sinful, while Jesus was perfect.

We have big ordeals in life, but He literally had the weight of the entire universe on His shoulders. [emoji848]

But Jesus suffered to provide His perfection, for our imperfection.


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[1Mind1Spirit]

If perfection can be imputed why wasn't it imputed to Jesus who learned obedience through suffering.

I don't see imputed here either.

Psalms 40:2
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

 

[jamie]

We indeed grow Spiritually through suffering. Only, we are sinful, while Jesus was perfect.

What enabled Jesus to be perfect?