The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

You do NOT understand the trinitarian doctrine.

You are confused and need to stop, but you won't.

The official word is that no one can understand the Trinitarian doctrine.

“If you deny the Trinity you will lose your soul. If you try and explain it you will lose your mind.”

-Augustine

 

[Rosenritter]

You out of all people are in disbelief!? Need I remind you that you deny that Jesus in Rev 1:5 is separate from the "one coming" in Rev 1:4 even though it plainly states it!? Yet you struggle on this word order???

You fail to understand why I said what I said, Genesis 48:15, 16:

Then he [Jacob] blessed Joseph and said:
The true God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The true God who has been shepherding me during all my life until this day
The angel who has been recovering me from all calamity,
bless the boys

Nothing in the above states that "the angel" was the "true God", there is no reason why "the Angel" according to the grammar or context cannot be separate from the "true God", it can simply be referring to the "true God" and an "angel". I do not deny that it can be read that the "angel" was the true God, but as already stated this is not the only interpretation nor the most plausible.

Sorry, I can't get past the disbelief at this point. You are so locked into being a loyal defender of the Watchtower that it is impairing your ability to read simple passages.

... so I take it your answer is yes, you believe that Jacob was praying to the True God (twice) and a created angel. And he asked God and this created angel to "bless the lads." Do you normally advocate making prayers to angels?

Genesis 48:15-16 KJV
(15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
(16) The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

 

[Potter's Clay]

Yes - the trinity is taught in Scripture.


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[God's Truth]

So the word "another" doesn't mean anything to you?

Here's the Greek version, so that you can examine it yourself:

"And I [God the Son, Jesus] will ask the Father [God the Father] and another Helper [God the Holy Spirit, someone other than God the Father and God the Son] He [God the Father] will give you that He [God the Holy Spirit] might be with you to the age."

The Trinity.

GT would have people believe that Jesus was a schizophrenic with a multiple personality disorder.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jesus says that to his disciples.

Jesus says the Spirit of truth. See John 14:17.

The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. JESUS IS THE TRUTH. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is the One who was living with them.

Jesus is the One who will be in them.

Jesus tells them, “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

Jesus comes to us and lives with those he saves.

Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

 

[Rosenritter]

Originally Posted by Right Divider
You are just horribly confused and will not accept the truth.

They are THREE PERSONS and ONE GOD.

The FATHER is 100% God, but He is not the SON who is also 100% God.

The Father SENT the Son; the Son SENT the Holy Spirit.

That is the truth. It's not hard, but you reject the truth.

(and I'm now reminded why I've put on ignore a number of times).

200% is a mathematical impossibility and doesn't resemble any sort of truth whatsoever.

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OK, I've got a problem with that definition above Right Divider. I'll demonstrate where confusion can enter.

If I have a dog that is 100% flesh, which is not the cat that is also 100% flesh, then I do maintain that I have a dog and a cat, and they are both flesh, but "flesh" in this sense is reduced to nothing more than substance. The definition you gave above seems rather polytheistic. I'm sure that's not what you mean to convey.

 

[Rosenritter]

What what?

Lazy, I almost posted "what" in response to your explanation of God and Christ. It didn't make sense to me, and by this I mean I couldn't figure out what you meant by it.

 

[God's Truth]

No.

The holy Spirit overshadowed Mary when Jesus was conceived.

You deny Gods son, which is why you speak like a devil.

LA

Jesus is the Holy Spirit. See 2 Corinthians 3:17.

 

[God's Truth]

You're not paying attention to the description of the words in the verse. "Another" is describing "Helper".

"Another" is an accusative masculine singular adjective.
"Helper" (also Comforter) is an accusative masculine singular noun.

The Holy Spirit is the Helper. The Helper is a person.

Jesus is letting them know that he is not coming to live with them in the flesh.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus is the Holy Spirit. See 2 Corinthians 3:17.

GT, where does 2 Corinthians 3:17 define "that Spirit" within that context? It doesn't say "Holy Spirit" but it does say "that Spirit."

Just to show you the explanation you might find yourself facing, from the Clarke commentary:

2Co 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit - In 2Co_3:6, 2Co_3:8, the word το πνευμα, spirit, evidently signifies the Gospel; so called because it points out the spiritual nature and meaning of the law; because it produces spiritual effects; and because it is especially the dispensation of the Spirit of God.

It seems to me that if it meant to say "Holy Spirit" it could have said that. So if you can show me where "that spirit" is defined in the context of 2 Corinthians 3:17 it would be most helpful.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Yes - the trinity is taught in Scripture.


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Welcome to TOL.

Love your name.

 

[marhig]

From the scriptures we can see that Jesus was led to the desert for the purpose of being tempted by the devil. That was why Jesus was led to the desert, which proves that Jesus was not tempted in such a way every day, as some here believe they are tempted.

Whether or not the whole time in the desert was a constant temptation, I do not believe so, for we have the scriptures speaking of temptation after he was hungry, after he did not eat for 40 days, after he suffered in the body for 40 days.

From the scriptures we see that after that the devil left him.

We can see that it was for a season.

That gives us reason to believe that Jesus would be tempted again, in such the same way.

The next time was probably before being arrested, since this is the time he talked about temptation when the body is weak and the mind is willing. This was the time before being arrested and Jesus didn't sleep and had the thoughts of torture and death before him.


We know that the Bible says that if we resist Satan and submit to God, Satan will flee from us.
How much more does the Word of God know this!

The scriptures also say that Jesus was tempted in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. That does NOT mean every day all day, as some here claim they are. I know for a fact that that is what one not fully obeying Jesus would say.

I do not believe for a second that Jesus, the Word of God, who is obedient to God, would continue in being tempted to sin every day all day.

I do believe that the scriptures show us that there is a temptation to not obey God when one is hungry, sleep deprived, fearful, tortured, and facing death.

Sinning is not doing what God says to do.

The apostles sinned when Jesus told them to stay awake.

We see that Jesus stayed awake and was sleep deprived before he was arrested. This was a stressful time for Jesus because he was facing pain and death.

How anyone gets that Jesus is tempted to sin with his flesh all day every day is just a pathetic existence that I do not see in the scriptures.

What????

Jesus is tempted to sin all day every day? I hope you're not referring to me here, because I've never said that!

Firstly, Jesus never sinned, being tempted and actually sinning are totally different. And Jesus is tempted all day every day? Who said that? I said that Satan could tempt him all day and it still wouldn't work because Jesus was too strong for him, but I never once said that he did do it! I myself have also said that he was tempted as we are, and it says this in the Bible, not only does it say that he was tempted as we are, but it actually says "in all points" as we are. So Jesus was tempted just like us. Yet he didn't sin once, and this is the important part.

It's not that Satan tempted him, it's the fact that Jesus didn't sin ever, which shows us the power that was in him, having the full strength of the Spirit, Satan couldn't touch him and he remained unspotted by this world.

I really don't think that you realise how strong Jesus was! He could spot Satan a mile off, so no matter what Satan did, he had no hope as Jesus had power over all flesh, because God had given him the full power of the Spirit because Jesus lived by his will and wasn't interested in his own will or this world, he came to bare witness to the truth and save as many as would believe in him. The devil had no hope no matter what he did to Jesus, even scourging and crucifying him through wicked men, Jesus still didn't sin, not once, instead he said father forgive them. He was full of love, forgiveness and mercy. Satan didn't stand a chance.

So, I hope you weren't referring to me in your post? Because what you've said isn't what I have been saying!

 

[marhig]

Marhig, if Jesus is not God, how does he himself live in thousands upon thousands of people?

Through the Holy Spirit

 

[marhig]

I'm quite certain that Mrs. Mary makes no distinction between the Spirit that is Christ, and GOD now, in this time.

I believe she may distinguish between when Christ walked the earth as man; as man is not equal to the utter literal absolute fullness of GOD as a material creation or temple.

That doesn't mean that what was in the temple/ vessel that was Jesus of Nazareth wasn't wholly the Spirit of GOD.



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I do believe that to a point pops, but I don't be that Jesus is the father. I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God come in flesh and that he was filled with the Holy Spirit from womb and he grew in strength in God as he was growing, becoming strong even as a child. Which is the opposite to us, because as we grow sin grows and doesn't start to go until we are born of God and receive the power of the Spirit. I don't believe that the father, son and Holy Spirit are the same one being. But three separate Spirits, the father being the head and God of all, and he has set Christ Jesus at his right hand, giving him authority over all, putting Christ over everything in heaven and in earth and we have to go through Jesus Christ to come to the father, he is the way the truth and the life, and his way is the only way to follow.

 

[steko]

Jesus is letting them know that he is not coming to live with them in the flesh.

Then what's the point of the resurrection of the body?

 

[marhig]

I do not doubt He was tempted at other times. Scripture tells me.

I do not doubt that He was not tempted at all times, but in all fashions like scripture tells us.

I know evil abounds around those seeking what is good. How much more must it have futiley attempted to deture the perfect lamb without blemish.

I also know from multiple sources...well....really just one; that evil and the temptation there of does lesson when actually turned from and fought against.

Does that help?

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That's really well put, and exactly how I see it too. Great post

 

[marhig]

Jesus' Spirit is and was the Holy Spirit when he walked the earth.
She is not saying the Lord Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit.

She is not saying Jesus is God.


I am not sure what you mean, for Jesus is the temple of God, even when he walked the earth.



...but that is what I what her to tell me that she believes or not.
The Bible says that the Lord is the Spirit.
She speaks like a trinitarian when she says Jesus is in us by proxy.
Jesus himself lives in us.

How can Jesus be the Holy Spirit if the Holy spirit drove him into the wilderness? The Spirit was in him.

It says in the Bible that the child Jesus waxed strong in Spirit, meaning the Holy Spirit within him grew in strength. So how is he alone that Spirit? And how is he the father when he says that the father is greater than he and that he comes from the father and goes to the father? He also says in the book of revelation that he is set in his father's throne? So how is he the father? And he also says that those who belong to him will be set in his throne as he is set in his father's throne, so does that make the church Christ? No, that means that we are as one with Christ and the father.

And finally, read his prayer in John 17, why would he pray to the father like this, if he is the father himself? It makes no sense!

 

[marhig]

You're not paying attention to the description of the words in the verse. "Another" is describing "Helper".

"Another" is an accusative masculine singular adjective.
"Helper" (also Comforter) is an accusative masculine singular noun.

The Holy Spirit is the Helper. The Helper is a person.

How do you see the Holy spirit as being a person? A person is a human! The Holy Spirit is spirit.

Thanks

 

[JudgeRightly]

How do you see the Holy spirit as being a person? A person is a human! The Holy Spirit is spirit.

Thanks

Marhig, are you a person?

 

[marhig]

There is nothing wrong with saying that Jesus endured temptation as we endure temptation. In one of the proper uses of the word, this is correct. What is incorrect (and this is my objection) is when one swaps out a different meaning of the word, and applies it out of context to construct a flawed argument of "Jesus was tempted, therefore he was not God."

Jesus was tempted (tried) in all points as we are. Jesus was not tempted (succumbed) as we are.

The only place in the whole Bible where there is any association of "tempted" with "not God" is in that one passage in James, and there it is very clear that what James means by tempted is "succumbed" not "tried." I would be greatly relieved if you would clarify that you are not (or no longer) using that argument.

The thing is, if Jesus endured temptation as we do, and was tempted in all points as we are, then he went through exactly what we do, yet without sin!

And what is the devil? He is evil, so how can Jesus not have been tempted by evil? Are we not tempted by evil? And if he was tempted in all points as we are then wouldn't he also have experienced the experiences as we do and endure the temptations of Satan as we do, yet the difference is Christ Jesus didn't sin, we do!

What do you believe Jesus was tempted by? It says in the Bible that the devil tempted him and the devil is evil!

I feel that he could endure all temptation, no matter what. So it's not the temptation but rather the fact that Jesus didn't sin that's important!

 

[marhig]

Marhig, are you a person?

Yes but I'm human, the Spirit within isn't a person, he's Spirit.