The Timelessness of God

[Jerry Shugart]

The argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise...

"they cannot even know things which will happen in the future"

Of course you failed to mention what I said specifically about what men are unable to know about the future--who will believe the gospel and who will not.

Or perhaps you want to argue that those who live in time can indeed foreknow who will believe and who will not?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Here is a post Knight made some time ago that was saved.

Judges 14:3

Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.” 4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. 5 So Samson went down to Timnah with his father and mother, and came to the vineyards of Timnah. Now to his surprise, a young lion came roaring against him. Did ya get that? God was "seeking an occasion to move"! God was looking for the right moment. The moment that best fit God's needs. The future does not exist, for if it did God would never once seek an occasion to do anything, as all of His occasion's would be settled in advance - no seeking required.

Oh man! This thread has me all out there now.

I agree and disagree with [MENTION=595]Knight[/MENTION].

The agree is in the seeking, but the how is different.

The how in my opinion is in the provision of free will and protection of it out of Love, but the simultaneous "foreknowledge" to shape time like a potter shapes a vessel.

I only offer this in conjecture, but the ability to know ALL and only intervene when "most" nessecary is far beyond human discipline. God lovingly intervenes. The issue in most off the shelf theology is that it squeezes God into a box by limiting Him or His Love.

If Love isn't factored in to even the most gory actions of God, the Bible becomes inconsistent and almost implies a schizophrenic God.

Otherwise, servanthood and self sacrifice run incongruent with The flood.

Note that even the flood displays a time that is full of violence and warriors. (Nephalum... Giants or Half-Breads? I don't care. I'll ask God one day when we can all enjoy His physical presence in eternity.)

I can immediately justify this assertion with the following verse...

Matthew 24:22

I get tired of people asserting that God is 3 parts good and 1 part bad. He knows when to prevent "human extinction". There's many more verses that prove this.

To limit God's Goodness (or redefine goodness) or His capabilities is absolutely human. When God drops the bam, it's out of Love and necessity.

But... these are my opinions. Fallible and human.

Omnipresent in time and space solves the mystery a bit. Love does the rest...

But I go back to Job and sit next to him in sackcloth, with ashes on my head. Only God can actually answer our questions correctly.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Genesis 22:12 KJV
(12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Wouldn't make sense if GOD lived in timelessness and already knew the outcome.

Since the LORD looks at the heart of man (1 Sam.16:7) then He would know for sure whether or not Abraham feared Him. Therefore, He certainly did not need to see any of Abraham's actions in order to know whether he feared Him or not.

What is said at Genesis 22:17 is in regard to this figure of speech:

"Antropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to humans and rational beings..." (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6).​

 

[Right Divider]

Time is not a thing. It is an idea. Time is a concept used to convey information about the duration and sequence of events.

How do we measure an idea?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

My logic tells me that 'timelessness' is not only a contradiction to many scriptures, but a contradiction to logic itself.

Sir Robert Anderson made some interesting observations about this subject which we might keep in mind:

"One of the most popular systems of metaphysics is based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to spring from the essential constitution of the mind itself ; and these are not subject to our reason, but, on the contrary, they control it. A superficial thinker might suppose the powers of human imagination to be boundless. He can imagine the sun and moon and stars to disappear from the heavens, and the peopled earth to vanish from beneath his feet, leaving him a solitary unit in boundless space ; but let him try, pursuing still further his madman's dream, to grasp the thought of space itself being annihilated, and his mind, in obedience to some inexorable law, will refuse the conception altogether. Or, to take an illustration apter for my present purpose, wild fancy may thus change the universe into a blank, but, though there should remain no shadow and no dial, no sequence of events, the mind is utterly incapable of imagining how time could cease to flow. And the practical conclusion we arrive at is that our idea of "past, present, and future," like that of space, is not derived from experience, but depends upon a law imposed upon our reason by the God who made us." (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1978], 77).​

 

[Tambora]

to shape time like a potter shapes a vessel.

The potter and the clay.

Jeremiah 18:1-18 KJV
(1) The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
(2) Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
(3) Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
(4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
(7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;(8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.




GOD - I'll do this if and when you do that.
That's not GOD working in timelessness, that's GOD waiting to see what happens before He reacts.

 

[Tambora]

based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to

fact
seem to

Something ain't adding up.

 

[Right Divider]

GOD - I'll do this if and when you do that.
That's not GOD working in timelessness, that's GOD waiting to see what happens before He reacts.

We who believe that time is part of creation have never said that when God is working with those IN His creation that He is "working in timelessness".

How would any interaction between God and His creation be working in timelessness?

God interacts with us IN creation as that is where WE are.

As I mentioned before, we humans live in a timespace universe. It is very difficult to think of anything outside of that.

 

[Tambora]

How do we measure an idea?

Logical calculations of evaluation of the subject.

You can have an idea to build a house. That's your plan for the future.
You calculate and evaluate to think of every possible scenario that could get that done.
That's using logic, and to make that plan does not require any 'timelessness' at all.

Since GOD's logic is far superior to ours, there is no scenario that GOD has not thought of and planned for (calculated and evaluated) in advance to get 'er done.
I don't think there is any situation that GOD cannot work around to get His plan done.
If He closes slams shut, He can open another.


A question that must be addressed is:
Is it impossible for GOD to get 'er done without the use of timelessness?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As I mentioned before, we humans live in a timespace universe. It is very difficult to think of anything outside of that.

I agree with that. We can only understand things by our experiences in our four dimensional environment. But it is obvious that the eternal state is something entirely different from our present existence. For instance, Paul says this about things eternal:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).​

We also know that flesh and blood bodies cannot enter into heaven and to do that we will be given bodies which are described as being "spiritual" bodies (1 Cor.15:44). These bodies are described as being heavenly bodies.

So we do not really know anything except that in regard to the things of the eternal state. While our existence is made up of four dimensions the eternal state may exist in thousands of different dimensions as far as we know. Therefore, it makes no sense to base our arguments on the assumption that the environment in the eternal state is the same as the one in which we exist.

 

[Tambora]

We who believe that time is part of creation have never said that when God is working with those IN His creation that He is "working in timelessness".

Let me ask this to clarify your position.

Do you believe that when GOD works IN time, He is no longer in a timelessness state?
Of do you believe that GOD is always IN and OUT at the same instant?

I see major problems with both those ideas.

How would any interaction between God and His creation be working in timelessness?

I am of the opinion He doesn't.

God interacts with us IN creation as that is where WE are.

Exactly.

As I mentioned before, we humans live in a timespace universe. It is very difficult to think of anything outside of that.

Why would there even need to be an 'outside'?
Why?

 

[Right Divider]

Logical calculations of evaluation of the subject.

You can have an idea to build a house. That's your plan for the future.
You calculate and evaluate to think of every possible scenario that could get that done.
That's using logic, and to make that plan does not require any 'timelessness' at all.

That is not, at all, the same thing. Estimating how long something will take to accomplish is NOT the same thing as actually measuring time itself.

Time is not an idea, but a characteristic of the physical universe. Time and space are inseparable, as I've mentioned before.

Since GOD's logic is far superior to ours, there is no scenario that GOD has not thought of and planned for (calculated and evaluated) in advance to get 'er done.
I don't think there is any situation that GOD cannot work around to get His plan done.

You were beating up Jerry for using language like that.

A question that must be addressed is:
Is it impossible for GOD to get 'er done without the use of timelessness?

That is illogical and begs the question.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A question that must be addressed is:
Is it impossible for GOD to get 'er done without the use of timelessness?

How could this happen unless the LORD can know specific things which will happen in the futiure?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice the order of things here. First they were "ordained" or appointed to eternal life and then after that "all" who were ordained believed.

How could this have happened unless the LORD knew who in the future would believe?

Thanks!

 

[Tambora]

I agree with that. We can only understand things by our experiences

I can know things that I have never experienced.
I can know that Israel will be restored without experiencing it.

 

[Right Divider]

Let me ask this to clarify your position.

Do you believe that when GOD works IN time, He is no longer in a timelessness state?

Of course not. God is.

That He communicates with us in time and space is based on the fact that that is were WE live. It's not a limitation of or on God.

Of do you believe that GOD is always IN and OUT at the same instant?

In a sense.... God is.

I see major problems with both those ideas.

Go ahead and tell what they are.

I am of the opinion He doesn't.

OK, that's your opinion.

Exactly.

How else would He interact with those that are living in the time-space continuum?

Why would there even need to be an 'outside'?
Why?

There is no "need". God is.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Time and space are inseparable, as I've mentioned before.

Of course they are and both are an integral part of the "creation." Since they were created then that means that they did not exist prior to the creation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I can know things that I have never experienced.
I can know that Israel will be restored without experiencing it.

I said "understand" things, meaning things specifically referring to the eternal state.

 

[Tambora]

How could this happen unless the LORD can know specific things which will happen in the futiure?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice the order of things here. First they were "ordained" or appointed to eternal life and then after that "all" who were ordained believed.

How could this have happened unless the LORD knew who in the future would believe?

Thanks!

Something can be ordained without knowing the individual names of 'whosoever' will.

I can ordain that at my Wedding party, whosoever shows up gets a free robe.
A phone service company can ordain that whosoever signs up in the next 10 days gets a free months service.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Something can be ordained without knowing the individual names of 'whosoever' will.

So God ordains people to eternal life despite not knowing who those people are?

 

[Tambora]

I said "understand" things, meaning things specifically referring to the eternal state.

I understand that Israel will be restored.
I don't even have to be alive when that happens, so I don't have to experience it at all to know it will happen in the future.