The Timelessness of God

[Jerry Shugart]

Those who exist in "time" are constrained by time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot go forward in time. In fact, they cannot even know things which will happen in the future.

In this verse the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge" of God:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

It is obvious that God is not constrained by time because He can know things which will happen in the future. Since He is not so constrained then we can know that He exists outside of time so it can be said that He exists in a "timeless" environment.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have been trying to get an answer to these points of mine from those who say that God exists in time. Isn't there at least one person who will attempt to answer what I said?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I have been trying to get an answer to these points of mine from those who say that God exists in time. Isn't there at least one person who will attempt to answer what I said?

Jerry,

I'll bite.

Would you like support or debate, good sir?

 

[Tambora]

You start with the premise that timelessness is a factual thing.
I haven't joined in because I can't build on that premise.
I don't know that timelessness is an actual fact.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You start with the premise that timelessness is a factual thing.

Tambora, I am basing my argument on the idea that those who exist in time are constrained by time.

We cannot take ourselves into the future nor can we have specific knowledge of things which others will do in the future.

Do you agree?

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Would you like support or debate, good sir?

I would like to hear your opinion as well as on what do you base your opinion.

Thanks!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

It is late, so your OP is my top priority tomorrow. I will avoid being diplomatic, and... share my opinion as you have asked and then explain my supporting thoughts and scriptures on the matter.

This OP is too good to leave hanging unanswered. [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] is chipping in. Awesome.

By tomorrow we'll be off the ground and pondering some cool thoughts.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I have been trying to get an answer to these points of mine from those who say that God exists in time. Isn't there at least one person who will attempt to answer what I said?

See:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?53669-One-on-One-AMR-and-JCWR-on-the-Temporality-of-God

AMR

 

[Tambora]

Tambora, I am basing my argument on the idea that those who exist in time are constrained by time.

We cannot take ourselves into the future nor can we have specific knowledge of things which others will do in the future.

Do you agree?

Thanks!

I agree that we can't take ourselves into the future or into the past, but can only live in the 'now'.

I don't agree that we cannot have specific knowledge of things which others will do in the future.
I have specific knowledge that Christ will return to earth in the future.
I gained that knowledge the same way I gain knowledge of the past.
It's knowledge that is available right here in the realm we live in.


I don't agree that it has to be 'time' that constrains us from doing such things.
I don't think time has any force at all to hold me back or push me.



I view the word 'time' about like I would the word 'talent'.
Both are nouns and therefore technically considered a 'thing', but neither are a created thing, but just words we use to describe and evaluate that which was created.


I know you believe time is a created thing, so we are at odds from the start,
But at least we can discuss what we each think about it.

It IS an interesting topic to speculate about, and I do like to see all the views about it.

 

[Tambora]

If what you are going to do in the future is already in the mind of GOD, then you couldn't possibly choose to wear a pink shirt on Jan 17th because that would make what's already in GOD's mind wrong (since GOD's mind has you wearing a green shirt that day). Freewill would not exist at all. Everything was determined by what GOD's mind already knew before it happened..

The whole 'timelessness' theory just seems very illogical to me on so many levels. And the old "it's a mystery" explanation really doesn't explain anything.

But I keep my mind open to other views about it. And I do like to see the thought process used to arrive at the conclusion one leans toward.

Thanks again for listening, Jerry.
I could probably talk about this stuff for days!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't agree that we cannot have specific knowledge of things which others will do in the future.

Tamora, can you know who will believe the gospel in the future according to your "foreknowledge"? Here we see that all those to whom the LORD ordained to eternal life believed:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice the order of things here. First they were "ordained" or appointed to eternal life and then after that "all" who were ordained believed. Does not what is said here explain how some can be chosen to eternal life BEFORE they believed?:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

Can those like us who are constrained by time have a knowledge beforehand of who will believe the gospel and who will not? Of course not.

Evidently the LORD knows so He is not constrained by time so therefore His existence is one which can be described as "timeless."

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I see myself now concerned with my post here, because this is theological conjecture. I was going to post my supporting scriptures and still might, but I want to state right off that I recognize God's words to Job and feel that basing Doctrines of men on theological conjecture is akin to dumb-butt-ary. Ok... full disclosure, I'm not fond of any extra biblical writings that show people how to view scripture. I feel they are "kindling" to the fire of division... and division is a fruit of the flesh in Galatians. I see largely embraced doctrines of men as theological Hitler's, attempting to commit the metaphorical genocide of free thought.

This is why I also appreciate this thread. It is refreshing to express free thought and opinion in a "safe" environment.

To ponder God in an environment where others enjoy pondering God... well, to all that drop by here... even dusty old [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] #Noah, I am "energized" by the zeal for God in each of you! It is nice to speak of these things and read what others think as well.

I will post 4 points on this matter and post each of the 4 points separately and out of order, most likely.

1) Core Scripture that involves these matters.

I have decided to refrain from linking this, as everyone here, including [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] (Who, while driving by us, tossed one from his "Infinite" collection of links of the "prolific" type, out the window, at us), ...continued from... as everyone here... has provided many beautiful scriptures on this fun topic.

2)Core opinion and thoughts of conjecture
3) Theological Implications
Example 1
Example 2
4) God's warning and address to Job

- Jam up thread Jerry!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

4) God's Warning and address to Job

Job 38-41 is pure gold! God has listened to Job and his friends yammer away about what they think and believe about Him. I've cited location, so to get to the point...

To me, Job's response is a very import thing to keep in the forefront of my mind.

2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

The several things I glean from this above are;

Job feels utterly humbled by the magnificence of God! God went on and on about creation and destruction. He mentions Leviathan and Behemoth as references to power. He asks Job if he would condemn Him to "Justify" himself.

In the end, He comes in great power to Job, but Job is ashamed in a way that shows he had underestimated how absolutely wonderful and Loving God is! Job relinquished his opinions and accepted God's sheer majesty.

I choose to acknowledge that God alone, truely understands mysteries and God alone understands God. We are simply attempting to define that which is defined as "Love". That says everything! All the words in every language can't begin to approach true definition of the most powerful force in existence.

So, now I will move forward and express my attempt at defining the Glory of everything, in respect to...

Time.

 

[Tambora]

Good morning, Jerry. And you too, EE.

No, I do not know all the individual names of every person that will ever be saved.
I only know what scripture tells me, and I don't see scripture with any such list.
"Whosoever' that believes is just not specific as to the names of individuals that will.
One would think that if it was necessary to know those individual names in advance, GOD would have mentioned it.
In fact, GOD tells Israel that He will do nothing unless it is first revealed in the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

GOD even says He has a book of life with names in it, but gives no names.
And even the names that in that book can be blotted out.
So even if we had a copy of that book, we still would not know the names that would remain in it.

Plus we have scripture that tells of GOD waiting to see what will happen.
Why does He have to wait and see if someone does right or wrong if He already knows the outcome?
And the scriptures that tell us that some things GOD wanted to happen, didn't happen.


I think GOD most definitely uses logic to make determinations.
Christ is even called the Word, the logos ---- logic.
Jesus used logic to argue a point, and so did Paul (practically all prophets did).

My logic tells me that 'timelessness' is not only a contradiction to many scriptures, but a contradiction to logic itself.
My logic tells me that 'time' (like the word 'talent') are just expressions of evaluation and calculation, and not created things.
The same for words like love and good. We live with those things, but love and good are not created things, but simply descriptive expressions of evaluation.
My logic tells me that there is no reason whatsoever that GOD must exist in timelessness to accomplish His well thought out plan.



Again, thanks for providing a nice thread to discuss these views.
Anything either of us say may spark some additional viewpoint neither of us has thought of.

 

[Tambora]

4) God's Warning and address to Job

................

Thanks for the input, EE.
I love the book of Job. Even started a thread on it a few years back to go verse by verse.

But does any of that DEMAND that GOD must live in 'timelessness'? (ie. couldn't get 'er done unless He lived in timelessness)?

 

[Clete]

Those who exist in "time" are constrained by time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot go forward in time. In fact, they cannot even know things which will happen in the future.

In this verse the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge" of God:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

It is obvious that God is not constrained by time because He can know things which will happen in the future. Since He is not so constrained then we can know that He exists outside of time so it can be said that He exists in a "timeless" environment.

The argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise...

"they cannot even know things which will happen in the future"

You have no means to substantiate this claim and thus your argument fails - irreparably.


Further, the idea of existence outside of time is itself a contradiction. In fact, by positing the notion of timeless existence you are committing a stolen concept fallacy.

Time is not a thing. It is an idea. Time is a concept used to convey information about the duration and sequence of events.

One's existence is itself an event that must, by definition, have duration. Thus to discuss timeless existence is to accept the concept of existence while rejecting the concept of duration! You are "stealing" the concept of existence. You are in effect accepting and rejecting it at the same time. Thus you cannot even bring up the idea of timeless existence without contradicting yourself. Therefore, God is not timeless because of the rational impossibility of the contrary.

There you go. I've both irreparably undermined your argument and proven your position to be rationally impossible.


Here's my prediction of the future...

Jerry Shugart will not be moved one inch off his position by either argument.

 

[Tambora]

Here is a post Knight made some time ago that was saved.

Judges 14:3

Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.” 4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. 5 So Samson went down to Timnah with his father and mother, and came to the vineyards of Timnah. Now to his surprise, a young lion came roaring against him. Did ya get that? God was "seeking an occasion to move"! God was looking for the right moment. The moment that best fit God's needs. The future does not exist, for if it did God would never once seek an occasion to do anything, as all of His occasion's would be settled in advance - no seeking required.

 

[Tambora]

Genesis 22:12 KJV
(12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.


Wouldn't make sense if GOD lived in timelessness and already knew the outcome.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

2) Core opinion and thoughts of conjecture

Well.. gulp... I'm taking off my theological cloths and revealing my naked opinions on this matter.

I believe... In my opinion... that...

Time is a principle of physics to God. It is merely a measure of something intangible to us, but to God, it is the word we have to assert to comprehend the incomprehensible. Yes... I divide what time is to us and what time is to God.

This isn't about us, so I'll proceed with God;

God is timeless and unbound to time. I believe that He bound Himself to time when He walked amongst us as humanities Father, Brother, Son, Servant, God, Lord, Savior, Friend... the list of magnificent titles that Christ bestowed in relation to us could fill a super computers hard drives!

I believe that God is the literal "Sentient, Invisible Energy" behind everything that could inhabit no space whatsoever or infinite space, yet maintain being.

Before Him there was never another and He has always existed. He is the very essence of life itself. I believe the tangible universe is merely a result of His will, and the actual "time" He took to create it is unknown. This is because the "creation" of the Heavens and the earth pre date the creation of earth and on that note... the earth was "formless and void", when Moses introduced our divinely Terraformed "Globe".

I believe God knows ALL and can experience ALL in what we would count the most fractional measure of time possible.

Our universe is incapable of justifying infinity, yet between .0001 and .0002 there is an infinity of fractional possibilities. God defines infinity and God has NO boundaries or limitations whatsoever. None!

I believe that God is the ultimate picture of Love and thus understanding His infinity through any other lens is a fracture of truely understanding Him. I will address this in "3) theological implications".

Why do I believe this? Here comes the straight jacket... lol

Because of the concept of infinity in respects to the finite. I use an empty space of darkness to reason this out. Because we are speaking of God and time, I will associate the analogy with such:

Picture darkness in a 3 dimensional field, now picture a single orb of light in that darkness. The brighter the light grows, the more the 'spaces" vastness is revealed. I think of this light as "human" perception. The only limit to the boundaries of that space is within "human perception". Infinity is the answer. There are no boundaries to this space. Shoot a time bullet from a gun and it would never reach the end of the space in any direction. This is God!

Let's take that bullet now and draw planet earth into the space. Let's call this space a 3 dimensional blackboard of linear time. We immediately perceive an issue. To arrive at creation, the bullet would have to have a point of origin.

First, let's shoot the bullet from the earth in a negative time direction. What is the problem? The problem is that the bullet would never "strike" a point of origin through the lens of "infinity". What does this imply?

It implies that it is impossible to arrive at time now, on a linear passage of time from negative infinity. This... the "tangible" is a result of the "touch" of the Infinite, intangible God. We exist within a divinely fashioned playground that again, has No boundaries. I would bet my very life that Astro physicists that assert the universe is finite and has "boundries" are wrong.

God has given us teaching tools to understand Him in every created thing that is tangible.

This Divine Energy or Spirit that is introduced "Hovering" "Over" the ethereal unknown is the only "tangible" explaination. He isn't the "God of the gaps", but the only scientific conclusion.

It becomes clear at this point that time and existence from our finite perspective is a dupe to us when trying to understand God and His connection to "Time". Time is a "tool" to God. Time is a "door way" to God. God is Omnipresent in all "measure" of "time".

Now it becomes exceedingly clear that He is indeed all knowing!

[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] addressed this, I believe and the implications on free will.

I will address this further in "3) Theological Implications".

Wphewwwww... I'm taking a break between the next facet of answering this fun and wonderful OP.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Good morning, Jerry. And you too, EE.

No, I do not know all the individual names of every person that will ever be saved.
I only know what scripture tells me, and I don't see scripture with any such list.
"Whosoever' that believes is just not specific as to the names of individuals that will.
One would think that if it was necessary to know those individual names in advance, GOD would have mentioned it.
In fact, GOD tells Israel that He will do nothing unless it is first revealed in the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

GOD even says He has a book of life with names in it, but gives no names.
And even the names that in that book can be blotted out.
So even if we had a copy of that book, we still would not know the names that would remain in it.

Plus we have scripture that tells of GOD waiting to see what will happen.
Why does He have to wait and see if someone does right or wrong if He already knows the outcome?
And the scriptures that tell us that some things GOD wanted to happen, didn't happen.


I think GOD most definitely uses logic to make determinations.
Christ is even called the Word, the logos ---- logic.
Jesus used logic to argue a point, and so did Paul (practically all prophets did).

My logic tells me that 'timelessness' is not only a contradiction to many scriptures, but a contradiction to logic itself.
My logic tells me that 'time' (like the word 'talent') are just expressions of evaluation and calculation, and not created things.
The same for words like love and good. We live with those things, but love and good are not created things, but simply descriptive expressions of evaluation.
My logic tells me that there is no reason whatsoever that GOD must exist in timelessness to accomplish His well thought out plan.



Again, thanks for providing a nice thread to discuss these views.
Anything either of us say may spark some additional viewpoint neither of us has thought of.

Good morning Tambora,

: )

I'm late to reply because of my post... Lol