OZOS
Well-known member
Jerry, I have answered you, several times, and I couldn't care less that you refuse the truth of God's word.
The Theory of Original Sin
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
the same old refrain we hear over and over, the fiction that you have already answered.
You continue to say that the following words are addressed to unbelievers:
"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (Jn.15;3).
How could the word clean anyone who doesn't believe that word?
You continue to say that the following words are addressed to unbelievers:
"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (Jn.15;3).
How could the word clean anyone who doesn't believe that word?
OZOS
Well-known member
I never said they are "unbelievers", you pervert and liar.
This is what you do, every single post, you create a straw man, and then you attempt to beat the straw man.
Because you hate context and exegesis, all you have is eisegesis.
I've already addressed this concerning Jesus as the vine and those who are branches. The word "clean" here is in reference to being pruned, not receiving eternal life. Eternal life is ONLY possible if someone has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. No believer had eternal life until AFTER Jesus died and was raised, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in men who believe in Him. Many people throughout the Bible believed God, but had yet to receive the promise of life. I've already proven this to you many times, but you hate God's word, you hate the gospel, and you hate the Lord Jesus Christ, so you continue to contradict yourself and look more and more foolish. Fine by me. I've got all day.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you admit that those who are the branches are believers and the following words of the Lord Jesus are addressed o believers?:
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." (Jn.15:4).
Do not His words indicate that it is possible that these believers might not abide in Him?
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." (Jn.15:4).
Do not His words indicate that it is possible that these believers might not abide in Him?
OZOS
Well-known member
Before the cross, no one had eternal life, and because you refuse context regarding terms, you use them in the same way for every application. There is a difference in abiding related to remaining with Him and then those who are in God and God in them. The former, was before men were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, one spirit with Him, a new creation, having received His life. The latter, is after men are born of God, indwelt of the Spirit, a new creation, made alive in Christ, etc. The difference is simple to understand, unless someone is a moron, like you.
It is possible before a person is born of God to stop abiding. It is not possible for someone born of God to no longer abide.
"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."
Is it your claim that those born of God can be unborn?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If we believe the words of the Lord Jesus we can see that believers were receiving eterna llife at the time He walked the earth:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).
The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life." Let's see if OZOS will actually address the words spoken by the Lord Jesus at John 5:24.
According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth.
But OZOS thinks that the Lord Jesus was not right about what He said OZOS says: "Before the cross, no one had eternal life."
Why does OZOS call himself a Christian since he denies the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ?
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).
The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life." Let's see if OZOS will actually address the words spoken by the Lord Jesus at John 5:24.
According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth.
But OZOS thinks that the Lord Jesus was not right about what He said OZOS says: "Before the cross, no one had eternal life."
Why does OZOS call himself a Christian since he denies the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ?
OZOS
Well-known member
You should be permanently banned for repeatedly lying and then trying to cover up your lies by making the same post over and over again.
Jesus is making a promise to those who believe, He did this often, and you have been given many examples where He did this, but because you hate ALL of God's word, and instead have only one verse that you must pervert to prop up your cult's teaching, you ignore the rest of the Bible.
Whosoever hears the the words of Jesus and believes Him who sent Him, has eternal life, will not be judged, and has crossed over from death to life. That is an absolute promise, from Jesus. Just like the following...
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
Once again, Jesus says "He who believes in me" and He affirms what will happen... they will do greater works! When? When He goes to the Father.
So, according to Jerry, Jesus is lying here, because every time Jesus says "He who believes in me" the believer will receive what Jesus said at that very moment.
Here is another example...
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
Jerry claims that someone can have eternal life without having the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, but God's word says otherwise...
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
"But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him." 1 Cor 6:17
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Rom 8:9
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 Jn 4:13
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6:63
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." 2 Cor 3:6
“The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Cor 15:45
Jerry claims that God's word is a lie, and that you can have eternal life and not have the Holy Spirit.
Jerry hates the Holy Spirit, and has mocked Him in his other thread.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You should go back to school and learn that the 'present" tense does not speak of something which will happen in the future. Let us look at the tenses of the verbs the Lord Jesus used when he said the following:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).
The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life."
the words "crossed from death unto life" does not speak of something which will happen in the future.
According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth.
But you think that the Lord Jesus was not right about what said because you said, "Before the cross, no one had eternal life."
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).
The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life."
the words "crossed from death unto life" does not speak of something which will happen in the future.
According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth.
But you think that the Lord Jesus was not right about what said because you said, "Before the cross, no one had eternal life."
OZOS
Well-known member
The present tense concerns when they hear and believe, not when Jesus said this, you blithering moron. The present tense is WHEN they hear and WHEN they believe Him who sent Him. They can ONLY cross from death to life, when there is a life to give. And according to Jesus and the apostle Paul, ONLY the Spirit gives life. YOU DENY THIS AND CALL JESUS AND PAUL "LIARS", but YOU are the liar.
"To assume the present tense always, by itself, speaks of action in present time is to impose English meaning and usage upon Greek. A present-tense verb in Greek may be used for past actions, as with the present tense verbs for “saw” and “said” in John 1:29: “The next day John saw [blepei] Jesus coming toward him, and said [legei], ʻBehold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!ʼ” Likewise, present tense verbs are sometimes used for events that will occur in future time: “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come [erchomai] again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:3). In Greek, verb tenses do not primarily indicate the time of an action as in English."
You are far too stupid to discuss anything, let alone the Bible.
No, they did not. You made that up. It's not possible and contradicts every other verse in God's word. You are the perfect example of someone who is in a cult, because nearly every cult is based on a false view of one verse.
FALSE. You are adding words and doctrine that God's word never says or implies. You simply don't know to read or understand a single thing in God's word. You're a fraud, and without hope.
Jesus said "It is the Spirit that gives life".
Paul said "The Spirit gives life"
You say "Jesus and Paul are liars, because men have received eternal life apart from the Spirit".
Only those who are born of the Spirit have eternal life. Your words are evidence that you do not have the Spirit of God, nor eternal life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOS said: "The present tense concerns when they hear and believe, not when Jesus said this, you blithering moron. The present tense is WHEN they hear and WHEN they believe Him who sent Him. They can ONLY cross from death to life, when there is a life to give. And according to Jesus and the apostle Paul, ONLY the Spirit gives life."
Yes, only the spirit gives life. and those who hear and believe his words receive life. He said:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The Greek word translated "they are" is in the present tense, meaning that those who believed received spiritual life right there and then when they believed.
But according to your dumb ideas the Lord's words had no such power.
"
Yes, only the spirit gives life. and those who hear and believe his words receive life. He said:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The Greek word translated "they are" is in the present tense, meaning that those who believed received spiritual life right there and then when they believed.
But according to your dumb ideas the Lord's words had no such power.
"
OZOS
Well-known member
False. Your double-mindedness is being exposed all over the place.
How many "Holy Spirits" do you claim exist?
The Holy Spirit did not give life until after Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOS wrote: "The Holy Spirit did not give life until after Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead."
According to your dumb idea the Lord jesus'words did not bring life to those who believed them even though he said:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The Greek word translated "they are" is in the present tense, meaning that those who believed received spiritual life right there and then when they believed.
You provre over and over that you will not believe the lord Jesus when what He said contradicts your silly ideas. you also deny what he said at john 6;47 and John 5;24.
You place the teaching of your cult leader above what the Lord Jesus Himself says.
According to your dumb idea the Lord jesus'words did not bring life to those who believed them even though he said:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
The Greek word translated "they are" is in the present tense, meaning that those who believed received spiritual life right there and then when they believed.
You provre over and over that you will not believe the lord Jesus when what He said contradicts your silly ideas. you also deny what he said at john 6;47 and John 5;24.
You place the teaching of your cult leader above what the Lord Jesus Himself says.
OZOS
Well-known member
You don't understand the first thing about "present tense" in Greek. Nor do you understand what salvation is, or what eternal life is.
The Holy Spirit is the one who gives life, you retard. Jesus is affirming that that those who believe in Him will have eternal life (READ THE CONTEXT). Eternal life is NOT given to those who believe UNTIL Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world and has risen from the dead.
"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator." Hebrews
In this same context of John 6:63, Jesus also affirms the following...
"Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."
You are a clown, who has absolutely no clue what the gospel is, or what it means to be saved and have eternal life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOs says: "Eternal life is NOT given to those who believe UNTIL Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world and has risen from the dead."
According o your silly ideas the Lord Jesus lied when He said the following when He alked the earth:
" Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
the greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense. That means that those who believed while the Lord jesus walked the earth had eternal life right then and there. But you deny the Lord's plain words because you have no place for Him in your heart.
According o your silly ideas the Lord Jesus lied when He said the following when He alked the earth:
" Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
the greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense. That means that those who believed while the Lord jesus walked the earth had eternal life right then and there. But you deny the Lord's plain words because you have no place for Him in your heart.
OZOS
Well-known member
Already proven all of your nonsense to be a lie. Boring.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOs wrote:"Already proven all of your nonsense to be a lie. Boring.
You did no such thing. The words believe and has are in the present tense. You have said nothing that even hints that they are not in the present tense. You talk big but that is all you are --a big talker!
You did no such thing. The words believe and has are in the present tense. You have said nothing that even hints that they are not in the present tense. You talk big but that is all you are --a big talker!
OZOS
Well-known member
I did, and once again, you are a liar.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOS wrote: "Eternal life is NOT given to those who believe UNTIL Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world and has risen from the dead.
According to your silly ideas while the Lord Jesus walked the earth no one received eternal life.
If we believe the words of the Lord Jesus we can see that believers were receiving eternal life at the time He walked the earth:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).
The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life."
According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth. Bu tyou would rather make the Lord Jesus a liar than to admit that you are wrong.
According to your silly ideas while the Lord Jesus walked the earth no one received eternal life.
If we believe the words of the Lord Jesus we can see that believers were receiving eternal life at the time He walked the earth:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).
The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life."
According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth. Bu tyou would rather make the Lord Jesus a liar than to admit that you are wrong.
OZOS
Well-known member
No one had eternal life UNTIL Jesus died for all sins of all men and was raised for our justification. For you to claim otherwise is evidence that you are not a believer in the gospel, and are outside the faith. Jesus is making a promise, that is "present tense" when someone believes the good news AFTER Jesus died and was raised.
You don't understand the first thing about "present tense" in Greek. Nor do you understand what salvation is, or what eternal life is.
"To assume the present tense always, by itself, speaks of action in present time is to impose English meaning and usage upon Greek. A present-tense verb in Greek may be used for past actions, as with the present tense verbs for “saw” and “said” in John 1:29: “The next day John saw [blepei] Jesus coming toward him, and said [legei], ʻBehold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!ʼ” Likewise, present tense verbs are sometimes used for events that will occur in future time: “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come [erchomai] again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:3). In Greek, verb tenses do not primarily indicate the time of an action as in English."
The Holy Spirit is the one who gives life, you retard. Jesus is affirming that that those who believe in Him will have eternal life (READ THE CONTEXT). Eternal life is NOT given to those who believe UNTIL Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world and has risen from the dead.
In this same context of John 6:63, Jesus also affirms the following...
"Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."
You are a clown, who has absolutely no clue what the gospel is, or what it means to be saved and have eternal life.
NO ONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE UNTIL THEY ARE INDWELT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
LEARN TO READ, YOU MORON.
"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."
The writer of Hebrew spells it out clearly...
Once Jesus died those who had sinned under the first covenant could then receive eternal life. The first covenant ended with Jesus death, you fool. The new covenant required His death. YOU DENY THIS, and it proves that you are a godless pervert.
You don't understand the first thing about "present tense" in Greek. Nor do you understand what salvation is, or what eternal life is.
"To assume the present tense always, by itself, speaks of action in present time is to impose English meaning and usage upon Greek. A present-tense verb in Greek may be used for past actions, as with the present tense verbs for “saw” and “said” in John 1:29: “The next day John saw [blepei] Jesus coming toward him, and said [legei], ʻBehold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!ʼ” Likewise, present tense verbs are sometimes used for events that will occur in future time: “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come [erchomai] again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:3). In Greek, verb tenses do not primarily indicate the time of an action as in English."
The Holy Spirit is the one who gives life, you retard. Jesus is affirming that that those who believe in Him will have eternal life (READ THE CONTEXT). Eternal life is NOT given to those who believe UNTIL Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world and has risen from the dead.
In this same context of John 6:63, Jesus also affirms the following...
"Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."
You are a clown, who has absolutely no clue what the gospel is, or what it means to be saved and have eternal life.
NO ONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE UNTIL THEY ARE INDWELT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
LEARN TO READ, YOU MORON.
"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."
The writer of Hebrew spells it out clearly...
Once Jesus died those who had sinned under the first covenant could then receive eternal life. The first covenant ended with Jesus death, you fool. The new covenant required His death. YOU DENY THIS, and it proves that you are a godless pervert.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Ozos,ou know how to read but you refuse to believe the following words spoken by the Lord Jesus before the Cross:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
According to your false teaching no one was given eternal life before the cross.
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
According to your false teaching no one was given eternal life before the cross.