The Serpent in the Wilderness

[beameup]

Wrong Deameup, sacrifices go all the way back, yes, but to the author of the book of Genesis. And regarding the book of Job, it was perhaps the most recent one, written during the exile of the Jews in Babylon; probably by Ezra himself, the most famous Scribe in the History of ancient Israel.

You seem to be undereducated as to the culture/society of the Middle-East prior to the Exodus. The Book of Job "dates itself" long before the Patriarchs and prior to the rise of Babylon. It seems that your synagogue is involved in "dumbing down" its members.

God sacrificed animals in order to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. The first two sons participated in the sacrificial system.

 

[Ben Masada]

Greetings again Ben Masada, Perhaps I think of the expression ”The Law” as relating to all aspects of what was given through Moses, including the Book of Leviticus which starts with the offerings and sacrifices.

There are Jews indeed that believe God gave Moses at Sinai also all the ritual laws. I am not of that kind. The Decalogue, yes. To claim that God gave Moses the sacrifices is tantamount to say that Jeremiah was a lying prophet to say that God never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. (Jeremiah 7:22)

, I agree. I believe that there is only One God, the Father. I also believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but “Lord” here is the equivalent of the Hebrew “Adon”.

Jesus was son of God indeed, but as part of the People whom the Lord said, "Israel is My Son." (Exodus 4:22,23)
Individually, and according to Mat. 1:18, Jesus could not have been the son of God. Too pagan to be Jewish.

Sacrifices were instituted from Eden, and Abel offered an acceptable sacrifice. I believe that Jesus is prefigured by the typical burnt offering of Isaac. Again I believe that the brazen serpent in the wilderness is a link to the altar of burnt offering, and connects with Isaac’s sacrifice. I connect the serpent with fallen human nature.

But not for Israel. I believe that every thing that happened in the Garden of Eden was an allegory. And I take the statement of Jeremiah that HaShem never commanded sacrifices for Israel. You have all the right in the world to believe whatever it pleases you. I can't believe as a Christian unless something is proved without question.

I suggest that God still required sacrifices under the Tanach, but he was rejecting mere ritual, or not true sacrifices Isaiah 1:11.

What does it mean, that you suggest that Jeremiah was lying in Jeremiah 7:22?

I see crucifixion in three categories and these three are revealed in Christ’s crucifixion and the other two adjacent him. Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee this day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Last part of v43 altered).

How did the one who was crucified with Jesus, the one who defended him, know that Jesus had never done any thing amiss? The text does not say that they were acquainted with each other.

Not all that were crucified were guilty of immediate crimes as these two malefactors as some would be crucified because of the tyranny of the Romans. But Jesus had done no sin, and as such in his death laid the foundation for the reversal of the death imposed on Adam. The malefactor who identified himself with the death and resurrection of Jesus will be resurrected to be in the Kingdom to be established when Christ returns. Jesus, a descendant of Adam, bearing sin’s flesh is the antitypical burnt offering, the antitypical brass serpent upon the pole.

Jesus had done no sin! A sin, as the Romans were concerned, was to commit insurrection by rebelling against Rome, and Jesus had allowed his own disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at that time. (Luke 19:37-40) That's the political charge that caused his death. Hence, his verdict commanded by Pilate to be nailed on the top of his cross read, INRI. That's the reason why Jesus was crucified.

 

[Ben Masada]

You seem to be undereducated as to the culture/society of the Middle-East prior to the Exodus. The Book of Job "dates itself" long before the Patriarchs and prior to the rise of Babylon. It seems that your synagogue is involved in "dumbing down" its members.

God sacrificed animals in order to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. The first two sons participated in the sacrificial system.

God never sacrificed a single animal. Perhaps your god, not mine. How could He inspire His Prophet Jeremiah by revealing to him that He had never commanded sacrifices to be done by Israel if he had sacrificed animals Himself? This can't never make sense at all. It even sounds a blasphemy. Now, as for the book of Job, prove to me that it dates itself from before the Patriarchs. Read it and show me what makes you think that it is that old.

 

[Patrick Cronin]

The reason why people think of Jesus when reading the account of the serpent erected by Moses, because Jesus Himself speaks of that serpent as foreshadowing His own death which He said was the means whereby "the prince of this world"(the serpent)would be cast out.(John 12:31) "Now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” This is confirmed by Jesus in John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. If Jesus understood that the bronze serpent had reference to His crucifixion we can have no better authority for that interpretation.

 

[patrick jane]

The reason why people think of Jesus when reading the account of the serpent erected by Moses, because Jesus Himself speaks of that serpent as foreshadowing His own death which He said was the means whereby "the prince of this world"(the serpent)would be cast out.(John 12:31) "Now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” This is confirmed by Jesus in John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. If Jesus understood that the bronze serpent had reference to His crucifixion we can have no better authority for that interpretation.

Hello, welcome to TOL !!!

 

[patrick jane]

God never sacrificed a single animal. Perhaps your god, not mine. How could He inspire His Prophet Jeremiah by revealing to him that He had never commanded sacrifices to be done by Israel if he had sacrificed animals Himself? This can't never make sense at all. It even sounds a blasphemy. Now, as for the book of Job, prove to me that it dates itself from before the Patriarchs. Read it and show me what makes you think that it is that old.

Job is the OLDEST book in the Bible

 

[Ben Masada]

The reason why people think of Jesus when reading the account of the serpent erected by Moses, because Jesus Himself speaks of that serpent as foreshadowing His own death which He said was the means whereby "the prince of this world"(the serpent)would be cast out.(John 12:31) "Now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” This is confirmed by Jesus in John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. If Jesus understood that the bronze serpent had reference to His crucifixion we can have no better authority for that interpretation.

Jesus spoke. He does no longer speak any thing at all because of Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. And, how do you know that he spoke about the blazing serpent in the wilderness if he wrote nothing and neither did any of his disciples? That's a forgery interpolated into the text to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Besides, if you read "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus, thousands of Jews were lifted up in thousands of crosses by the Romans only in the First Century in no different manner as Jesus was. What about if I told you that the serpent lifted up in the wilderness pointed to al those thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans in the First Century? Would you at least find a small possibility that it was also true?

Now, as your claim that every one who believes in him may have eternal life there is no truth to it because eternal life is an attribute that God did not share it with man. That's the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden; to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. Only God has that attribute. Man cannot live forever because he had a beginning. (Genesis 3:22,23) It would be against the nature after which God created man. Every beginning naturally calls for an end.

 

[Ben Masada]

Job is the OLDEST book in the Bible

I asked for a proof and you give me your word. If you think I am supposed to take your word for granted, think again!

 

[beameup]

Now, as your claim that every one who believes in him may have eternal life there is no truth to it because eternal life is an attribute that God did not share it with man. That's the reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden; to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. Only God has that attribute. Man cannot live forever because he had a beginning. (Genesis 3:22,23) It would be against the nature after which God created man. Every beginning naturally calls for an end.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart - Ecc. 3:11 ESV

The ESV is based upon the BCE/CE Dead Sea Scrolls,
and not the 1,000 A.D. Masoretic Text.

 

[Ben Masada]

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart - Ecc. 3:11

There is nothing about eternal life in Ecclesiastes 3:11. Here is how it says in the JPS: "He brings every thing to pass precisely at its time; He also puts eternity in their mind, (to think) but without man ever guessing, from first to last, (from birth to death) all the things that God brings to pass."

 

[marhig]

The reason why people think of Jesus when reading the account of the serpent erected by Moses, because Jesus Himself speaks of that serpent as foreshadowing His own death which He said was the means whereby "the prince of this world"(the serpent)would be cast out.(John 12:31) "Now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” This is confirmed by Jesus in John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. If Jesus understood that the bronze serpent had reference to His crucifixion we can have no better authority for that interpretation.

We are the earth that Jesus is talking about. Not the natural earth. Jesus is talking about lifting him up in our hearts and then when he is manifest in us through the holy spirit. Then he through us will draw all men to him by the word of God.

 

[Ben Masada]

He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart - Ecc. 3:11

The JPS brings, "He also puts eternity in their minds but without man ever guessing from first to last all the things that God brings to pass." Eternity in their minds probably to think of for some still unknown reason to me.

 

[beameup]

The JPS brings, "He also puts eternity in their minds but without man ever guessing from first to last all the things that God brings to pass." Eternity in their minds probably to think of for some still unknown reason to me.

We are created in G_d's image, hence the thought of eternity.
Also, from a very early age, humans have a concept/expectation of a "perfect world".
As well, at a fairly early age, humans have an awareness of personal "sinfulness".

 

[Ben Masada]

We are created in G_d's image, hence the thought of eternity.
Also, from a very early age, humans have a concept/expectation of a "perfect world".
As well, at a fairly early age, humans have an awareness of personal "sinfulness".

Too bad because, God does not have an image. Jesus himself said that God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Spirits are incorporeal and, there is no image in incorporeality. The reference in Genesis 1:26 is to the attributes of God shared with man. "Let's make man in our image" aka according to God's attributes.(Deuteronomy 4:14-20 and Isaiah 46:5)

 

[beameup]

Too bad because, God does not have an image. Jesus himself said that God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Spirits are incorporeal and, there is no image in incorporeality. The reference in Genesis 1:26 is to the attributes of God shared with man. "Let's make man in our image" aka according to God's attributes.(Deuteronomy 4:14-20 and Isaiah 46:5)

Image means attributes:
We have an inherent sense of eternal life,
we have an inherent sense of God's holiness (& our sinfulness),
we have an inherent sense of perfection.
If we never had the opportunity to fulfill these
then God never would have implanted them in us.

 

[daqq]

Too bad because, God does not have an image. Jesus himself said that God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Spirits are incorporeal and, there is no image in incorporeality. The reference in Genesis 1:26 is to the attributes of God shared with man. "Let's make man in our image" aka according to God's attributes.(Deuteronomy 4:14-20 and Isaiah 46:5)

That's a good point but hard to overcome when modern teachings so often portray the Almighty in terms of anthropomorphic visualization, (while at the same time claiming that the man Yeshua is himself the Almighty born of a woman). The "image" which Messiah perfectly displays is the WORD which was spoken through Yeshua rather than the man speaking that Word, thus indeed, displaying pure, holy, and righteous attributes. The first man Adam is of the earth, earthy or dust-like, (Gen 2:7), the second man from the heavens, (Gen 1:26), was not complete until the ninth hour at Golgotha when the Testimony of Yeshua was finished, (for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (and that includes Gen 1:26)).

 

[Ben Masada]

Image means attributes: We have an inherent sense of eternal life, we have an inherent sense of God's holiness our sinfulness, we have an inherent sense of perfection. If we never had the opportunity to fulfill these then God never would have implanted them in us.

To have the sense of something and to enjoy the reality of it is cosmically as far away as they can be from each other.

 

[Ben Masada]

That's a good point but hard to overcome when modern teachings so often portray the Almighty in terms of anthropomorphic visualization, (while at the same time claiming that the man Yeshua is himself the Almighty born of a woman). The "image" which Messiah perfectly displays is the WORD which was spoken through Yeshua rather than the man speaking that Word, thus indeed, displaying pure, holy, and righteous attributes. The first man Adam is of the earth, earthy or dust-like, (Gen 2:7), the second man from the heavens, (Gen 1:26), was not complete until the ninth hour at Golgotha when the Testimony of Yeshua was finished, (for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (and that includes Gen 1:26)).

How do you explain then that, according to Josephus, thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in the very same manner as Jesus was only in the First Century? How, for heaven's sake, the "second man" had to be Yeshua and the others not even mentioned at all in the NT, because of Paul whom the other didn't have one to take their cause? Kind of unfair, don't you think so?

 

[daqq]

How do you explain then that, according to Josephus, thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in the very same manner as Jesus was only in the First Century? How, for heaven's sake, the "second man" had to be Yeshua and the others not even mentioned at all in the NT, because of Paul whom the other didn't have one to take their cause? Kind of unfair, don't you think so?

The N/T also teaches that it is better to suffer for the sake of righteousness than for doing wrong. For instance if it just so happens to be the first century, and you are engaged in attempts to overthrow Roman rule because of taxation you disagree with, then you should expect to be crucified as an example for other potential rebels if and when they catch you. It is not rocket science but it also is not so comparable with Golgotha as you are trying to make it sound. And who was it that crucified 800 Pharisees at one time while he feasted with his concubines? Oh, wait, that was Alexander Jannaeus eliminating his political enemies for sport. :chuckle:

 

[beameup]

To have the sense of something and to enjoy the reality of it is cosmically as far away as they can be from each other.

So, your understand of God is that he is a trickster, like the Viking God Loki?
He plants yearnings for a "perfect world" and a sense of immortality,
only to prohibit the fulfillment of these yearnings?