The right to nondiscrimination

[Nihilo]

The struggle between these two issues continues.

"We may not like the claim of conscience," [Charles, "director of the Religious Freedom Center at the Newseum Institute in Washington"] Haynes says, "but you know, we don't judge claims of conscience on whether we like the content of the claim. We are trying to protect the right of people to do what they feel they must do according to their God. That is a very high value."

Haynes himself says LGBT rights and same-sex marriage "are very important" but that supporters of those causes "cannot simply declare that one side wins all."

"Nondiscrimination is a great American principle — it's a core American principle — as is religious freedom," Haynes says. "When you have two important American principles coming into tension, into conflict with one another, our goal as Americans is to sit down and try to see if we can uphold both."​

Another matter is whether or not the Catholic Church should be forced by law to ordain ladies instead of only men, or whether the Church should be forced by law to celebrate the sacrament of marriage with same-sexed couples. It's all related, and at some point it seems that there may a showdown somewhere.

 

[jamie]

Another matter is whether or not the Catholic Church should be forced by law to ordain ladies instead of only men, or whether the Church should be forced by law to celebrate the sacrament of marriage with same-sexed couples. It's all related, and at some point it seems that there may a showdown somewhere.

Some citizens advocate separation of church and state.

I think this is based on the premise that the state belongs to the people, at least in the U.S., but the church belongs to God.

 

[Tambora]

 

[Nihilo]

The basis of the Church's faith is the Apostles, who were ordained by the Lord Himself (Jn15:16KJV), and who ordained other bishops, and who instructed those bishops to ordain more bishops, and this practice, the Church's sacrament of Holy Orders, has continued to this day. This is the formal way in which the Church builds her teaching on faith and morals upon Christ. What right does anybody have outside the Church to insert themselves into this structure, with the intent of trying to put words into the Lord's mouth regarding ordination and marriage? If the First Amendment holds up, IMO none. Hopefully the courts agree, forever.

 

[Stuu]

Another matter is whether or not the Catholic Church should be forced by law to ordain ladies instead of only men, or whether the Church should be forced by law to celebrate the sacrament of marriage with same-sexed couples. It's all related, and at some point it seems that there may a showdown somewhere.

God belief and religious observance are hobbies, and as such people must be allowed to set up clubs within which they can follow their hobbies.

The problem comes when the club makes a claim to providing a service to non-club members, especially when the non-club members are paying for the service through their taxes, or the non-club members are expecting not to be discriminated against on any of the grounds that are illegal.

The Vatican can make whatever rules for its club members (children who are 'members' because their parents say so run the risk of becoming victims). The Vatican cannot expect to make rules that apply to non-club members.

In the same way, a Catholic pharmacist must not be allowed to refuse contraception, and a cake shop owner cannot expect to apply his private club rules to members of the public, when the law says it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation, which is what some of them try to do.

If your conscience/club rules say you can't sell cakes to gay couples, then you shouldn't be selling cakes to the public.

Stuart

 

[ok doser]

God belief and religious observance are hobbies...

how about that


you went full retard in only seven words

 

[Stuu]

how about that


you went full retard in only seven words

You went to abuse without even posting an argument.

I'll take that to be your agreement with my point.

Stuart

 

[ok doser]

I'll take that to be your agreement with my point

it would be the retarded thing to do

 

[Wick Stick]

:Reads original post:

How thought provoking.

:Reads comments:

Who set fire to all these tires?

 

[Stuu]

it would be the retarded thing to do

What would Jesus have done?

Stuart

 

[Nihilo]

The Vatican cannot expect to make rules that apply to non-club members.

Nor does the Church do that.

 

[Stuu]

Nor does the Church do that.

Here is the Vatican signing agreements, often with Catholic political leaders of sovereign nations, that set up rules advancing the cause of their particular hobby at the financial expense of members of the Catholic club and non-members too.

Here is the account of the famous Mortara case where a member of the Catholic club performed a club ritual on a young Jewish boy, who was then abducted from his Jewish parents, according to the Catholic club rules, held hostage, and indoctrinated in the ways of that club.

Here we have some members of the Catholic club asserting their right to force non-members to follow their rules about what pharmacists may dispense, or find a different pharmacy. No one in a desparate state requiring a morning-after pill should be subjected to the nasty rules of the Catholic club.

Need more?

Stuart

 

[Nihilo]

Here is the Vatican signing agreements, often with Catholic political leaders of sovereign nations, that set up rules advancing the cause of their particular hobby at the financial expense of members of the Catholic club and non-members too.

Here is the account of the famous Mortara case where a member of the Catholic club performed a club ritual on a young Jewish boy, who was then abducted from his Jewish parents, according to the Catholic club rules, held hostage, and indoctrinated in the ways of that club.

Here we have some members of the Catholic club asserting their right to force non-members to follow their rules about what pharmacists may dispense, or find a different pharmacy. No one in a desparate state requiring a morning-after pill should be subjected to the nasty rules of the Catholic club.

Need more?

Yeah.

 

[Stuu]

Yeah.

Here in the Holy Wikipedia you can read about the Catholic church imposing its club rules on Catholic club members and non-members with the assistance of state funding, this time in the context of education.

How about some other examples of religious clubs applying their rules to non-members? Islam? Baptists? Evangelicals? They're all at it.

Stuart

 

[Nihilo]

Here in the Holy Wikipedia you can read about the Catholic church imposing its club rules on Catholic club members and non-members with the assistance of state funding, this time in the context of education.

How about some other examples of religious clubs applying their rules to non-members? Islam? Baptists? Evangelicals? They're all at it.

Stuart

An area of the world doesn't have enough schools or hospitals, the Catholic Church comes in and provides the community schools and hospitals, and because the Church aren't profit-hungry greedy corporations they don't charge an arm-and-a-leg for their services, so the community, which is mostly Catholic anyway, doesn't consider it a priority to develop a non-Catholic solution to the otherwise lack of supply in their local education and healthcare market.

 

[Stuu]

An area of the world doesn't have enough schools or hospitals, the Catholic Church comes in and provides the community schools and hospitals, and because the Church aren't profit-hungry greedy corporations they don't charge an arm-and-a-leg for their services, so the community, which is mostly Catholic anyway, doesn't consider it a priority to develop a non-Catholic solution to the otherwise lack of supply in their local education and healthcare market.

Indeed, an entirely fair point to raise,and I dare say the economic and cultural realities in Ireland, Italy, Poland and other Catholic-dominated countries are as you say. And if the Catholic church didn't insist on applying their hobby's rules to non-club members, the arrangement could be a brilliant one.

It could be an example of people acting purely altruistically, giving of their time / money with no particular conditions or expectations of something in return.

However, we both know that's not how it turns out. Just in the past week we see how it was the Irish Catholic church that took it upon itself to take 'care' of single mothers in County Galway in the 1950s, in an institution that has a mass grave of children's remains in its grounds. While there was, I'm guessing, little available in the way of welfare, it was the rules of the Catholic hobby that resulted in women being ostracised for being single and pregnant in the first place.

The story appears to be similar in many Catholic-run institutions across Ireland. People have been abused because the club rules do not put the safety and dignity of humans first. And in Africa, Catholics working on the ground in communities ravaged by HIV infection have pleaded with the Vatican to suspend their moronic ban on condoms. The condition of Catholic charitable aid is the risk of unnecessary death because of dogma.

There are plenty of criminal and fascist organisations that have provided welfare services for particular sections of the community in need. That doesn't mean we should continue to have the Mafia / gangs / the Catholic church providing for vulnerable people: the vulnerable are expected to follow the club rules. There are non-religious organisations, for example Médecins Sans Frontières, who do not require desperate people to follow moronic or fascist rules.

From what I know about Catholic schools, I don't think the Catholic church has any business in modern education at all. But the entertaining aspect is that while many think it is a great opportunity for maintaining the faith amongst the young, actually the evidence is that Catholic schools generate atheists at much higher rates than other schools.

Stuart

 

[Nihilo]

Indeed, an entirely fair point to raise,and I dare say the economic and cultural realities in Ireland, Italy, Poland and other Catholic-dominated countries are as you say. And if the Catholic church didn't insist on applying their hobby's rules to non-club members, the arrangement could be a brilliant one.

Perhaps then what you suggest as an improvement is underway already. The Church specifically teaches that religious liberty and the freedom of religion is perhaps the most important social value than any secular government could hold and protect. So it could be that it's literally a local issue, where an entire community of predominant Catholics need to figure out how to apply their own Church's teachings on the matter.

It could be an example of people acting purely altruistically, giving of their time / money with no particular conditions or expectations of something in return.

However, we both know that's not how it turns out. Just in the past week we see how it was the Irish Catholic church that took it upon itself to take 'care' of single mothers in County Galway in the 1950s, in an institution that has a mass grave of children's remains in its grounds. While there was, I'm guessing, little available in the way of welfare, it was the rules of the Catholic hobby that resulted in women being ostracised for being single and pregnant in the first place.

The story appears to be similar in many Catholic-run institutions across Ireland. People have been abused because the club rules do not put the safety and dignity of humans first. And in Africa, Catholics working on the ground in communities ravaged by HIV infection have pleaded with the Vatican to suspend their moronic ban on condoms. The condition of Catholic charitable aid is the risk of unnecessary death because of dogma.

There are plenty of criminal and fascist organisations that have provided welfare services for particular sections of the community in need. That doesn't mean we should continue to have the Mafia / gangs / the Catholic church providing for vulnerable people: the vulnerable are expected to follow the club rules. There are non-religious organisations, for example Médecins Sans Frontières, who do not require desperate people to follow moronic or fascist rules.

From what I know about Catholic schools, I don't think the Catholic church has any business in modern education at all. But the entertaining aspect is that while many think it is a great opportunity for maintaining the faith amongst the young, actually the evidence is that Catholic schools generate atheists at much higher rates than other schools.

Stuart

I don't think that the Church's mission is to administrate schools and hospitals, when there is no need for the Church to do so. I don't think the Church would fight politically against other people wanting to "horn in" to their school and hospital markets either, but that she would instead welcome it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The struggle between these two issues continues.

"We may not like the claim of conscience," [Charles, "director of the Religious Freedom Center at the Newseum Institute in Washington"] Haynes says, "but you know, we don't judge claims of conscience on whether we like the content of the claim. We are trying to protect the right of people to do what they feel they must do according to their God. That is a very high value."

Haynes himself says LGBT rights and same-sex marriage "are very important" but that supporters of those causes "cannot simply declare that one side wins all."

"Nondiscrimination is a great American principle — it's a core American principle — as is religious freedom," Haynes says. "When you have two important American principles coming into tension, into conflict with one another, our goal as Americans is to sit down and try to see if we can uphold both."​

Another matter is whether or not the Catholic Church should be forced by law to ordain ladies instead of only men, or whether the Church should be forced by law to celebrate the sacrament of marriage with same-sexed couples. It's all related, and at some point it seems that there may a showdown somewhere.

Is it discrimination if one is sin (homosexuality), the other is truth (Christianity)?

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[Nihilo]

Some citizens advocate separation of church and state.

I think this is based on the premise that the state belongs to the people, at least in the U.S., but the church belongs to God.

The Catholic Church herself advocates for separation between her and the state. She teaches strongly for the freedom of religion, as a secular value, and as if with her other social teachings, it is built upon her moral teaching.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What would Jesus have done?

Stuart

He would call you a fool, or a snake, or swine.

#WDJD

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