ECT The Purpose of Repentance Beginning With John the Baptist

[Jerry Shugart]

The bible says unbelief is sin or disobedience so belief is to obey or not sin willingly. Which would imply repenting of your former life and live for Christ by following his commands.

No, belief does not mean to obey. The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "belief" is "conviction of the truth of anything" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

I see no defintion of that word which is "obedience."

 

[turbosixx]

No, belief does not mean to obey. The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "belief" is "conviction of the truth of anything" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

I see no defintion of that word which is "obedience."

No it doesn't mean obedience. Here is what Strongs says:
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.


The word translated "believe" in the bible differs depending on how it's used. Here it's used in relation to eternal life.
Jn. 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
The word used for believes in this verse is "pisteuOn" which is in the Present Active Participle. That means that belief must continue. It's like saying "he that breaths will not die but will live". You stop breathing you die.


Here believe is the same as verse 16 but look at the flip side.
Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
In the place of "not obey" many translations have "does not believe" or "believeth not" and it's often used interchangeably with believe.

The word used here is "apeithOn" and it means to disobey.
Just like we saw in Hebrews, the ones who stopped believing were disobedient and didn't enter his rest.

The same word the KJV many times uses for "believeth not" is used here:
Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


If we trust in Christ will we not follow him?

Can we say we "believe in" him and yet not obey him? That would put us in with the demons.

 

[God's Truth]

While I agree with you on repentance being necessary, there is one piece of your argument that is false.

You do not have to be repentant to be "saved."

One need look no further than Paul's own story. He was not repentant on the road to Damascus. He was persecuting Christians, after all. Yet he was saved. And he was saved before he repented.

I think you, and Jerry, have valid points. But I think a middle ground is more accurate to the truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Paul's testimony of when he was going to Damascus proves you wrong.

Paul was still blind and not yet saved when he finally believed in Jesus on that road.

Paul had to obey and go where Jesus told him to go.

Paul did not eat or drink for three days and he spent his time praying.

I can imagine what his prayers sounded like. He was probably repenting for his sins profusely.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul is speaking of two things here. He preached to the people to repent of their sinful lifestyles and to have faith in the Lord Jesus. As I have already demonstrated, it is those who have faith who are saved. The turning from their sinful life style is in regard to "service":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

We have to repent of our sins to be saved, and we have to continue to obey to stay saved. The gospel message is sent to those who fear God and who do what is right.

See Acts 10:35 and Acts 13:26.

Just read what Paul says to the believers in Romans 2. He lets them know that if they believe and did not repent then they will suffer God’s wrath. He explains that God does not play favorites. That means you cannot say, “But God, I believed.”

"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20).

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent" is "to change one's mind" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Paul told the unsaved to change their minds about God and turn to Him and that was in regard to salvation.

We have to repent of our sins. Paul didn’t preach to change our minds about God. Paul told the Greeks that God demands that all everywhere repent. Most people everywhere never even heard of Jesus. How will they change their mind about someone they never heard of?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Then they were to do works meet for repentance and that is in regard to their service.

Now I have answered these two verses for you now tell us why the Apostle Paul made it plain that only "faith" was required in order to be saved:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31-32).

Tell us why Paul only mentioned faith as a requirement for salvation? Did he just forget to mention that in order for anyone to be saved they must believe AND repent from their sinful lifestyle?

Did he suddenly develop a case of amnesia? Why did he forget to mention repenting from a sinful lifestyle as a requirement for salvation?

I keep explaining this to you and asking you the same question repeatedly but you do not answer me. Tell me how it is that we are supposed to believe Jesus died for our sins but we do not have to repent of those sins?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The word translated "believe" in the bible differs depending on how it's used. Here it's used in relation to eternal life.
Jn. 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
The word used for believes in this verse is "pisteuOn" which is in the Present Active Participle. That means that belief must continue. It's like saying "he that breaths will not die but will live". You stop breathing you die.

Kenneth S. Wuest writes the following in regard to the Greek words translated "whosoever believes":

"'whoever believes' = 'pas ho pisteuon' = relative pronoun with a participle verb functioning as a noun, lit. 'everyone who is believing'...Contrary to objectors who insist that Jn 3:16 stipulates everyone who maintains a constant state of believing as result of the phrase 'whoever believes' = 'pas ho pisteuon', the form of the verb to believe is not a present tense form but it is actually a nominative, singular, masculine, present active participle, i.e., a participle acting as a noun indicating 'one who believes' [in Christ as Savior], i.e., a believer. The participle acting as a noun does not require a perfection of continuous action such as continuous believing in order for an individual to be qualified as a believer" (Wuest, Wuest's Word Studies, Vol. 3, [Eerdmans Publishing Co, 1992], p. 67).​

 

[glorydaz]

We have to repent of our sins to be saved, and we have to continue to obey to stay saved. The gospel message is sent to those who fear God and who do what is right.



I keep explaining this to you and asking you the same question repeatedly but you do not answer me. Tell me how it is that we are supposed to believe Jesus died for our sins but we do not have to repent of those sins?

The broken record never ceases to go round and round. :bang:

 

[God's Truth]

The broken record never ceases to go round and round. :bang:

If you would know the joy of obeying God, then you would be preaching it too.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We have to repent of our sins to be saved, and we have to continue to obey to stay saved. The gospel message is sent to those who fear God and who do what is right.

No, the LORD knows the hearts of men (1 Ki.8:39) and he gives eternal life to true believers when they believe (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

So from the moment a person believes he enjoys eternal security. And all as a result of faith and faith alone.

 

[God's Truth]

no,

I gave scriptures and you are saying no to those scriptures. Why don't you at least acknowledge those scriptures?

the LORD knows the heart of men

That is right. God knows our hearts.

You know something, you brought up a good point, God knowing our hearts.

Before I was saved, I didn't think too much of myself, and didn't think anything special about my heart; yet, I wanted to be saved and a child of God more than anything. I got Jesus' teachings and did what he said to do, and my heart was made into a heart that God accepts. Then He saved me in a miraculous way, and made His home in my heart.

and he gives eternal life to true believers when they believe (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

I am going deeper. Let us talk about the deeper things of God and not just what you think it says.

So from the moment a person believes he enjoys eternal security.

No, not from the moment a person believes. There are millions of people who believe and do not obey and will face God's wrath. There are many people who believe and think that is enough, while they live their lives as always.

 

[turbosixx]

Kenneth S. Wuest writes the following in regard to the Greek words translated "whosoever believes":

"'whoever believes' = 'pas ho pisteuon' = relative pronoun with a participle verb functioning as a noun, lit. 'everyone who is believing'...Contrary to objectors who insist that Jn 3:16 stipulates everyone who maintains a constant state of believing as result of the phrase 'whoever believes' = 'pas ho pisteuon', the form of the verb to believe is not a present tense form but it is actually a nominative, singular, masculine, present active participle, i.e., a participle acting as a noun indicating 'one who believes' [in Christ as Savior], i.e., a believer. The participle acting as a noun does not require a perfection of continuous action such as continuous believing in order for an individual to be qualified as a believer" (Wuest, Wuest's Word Studies, Vol. 3, [Eerdmans Publishing Co, 1992], p. 67).​

You can find quotes from men to support every view there is. I look to scripture for understanding.

Do you believe one can stop believing and still be a believer?

The Hebrew writer says believers "fall away" because of unbelief.
Heb. 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Then he says they must hold fast to be partakers.
Heb. 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Then he shows what unbelief looks like.
Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Paul basically says the same thing:
Col. 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

 

[Interplanner]

You can find quotes from men to support every view there is. I look to scripture for understanding.

Do you believe one can stop believing and still be a believer?

The Hebrew writer says believers "fall away" because of unbelief.
Heb. 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Then he says they must hold fast to be partakers.
Heb. 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Then he shows what unbelief looks like.
Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Paul basically says the same thing:
Col. 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

Actually turbo, I find this quote to support continuous belief! I think Jerry just shot himself in the head. The person is a believing person, not an unbelieving one.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Actually turbo, I find this quote to support continuous belief! I think Jerry just shot himself in the head. The person is a believing person, not an unbelieving one.

:chuckle:

 

[jsanford108]

Paul's testimony of when he was going to Damascus proves you wrong.

Paul was still blind and not yet saved when he finally believed in Jesus on that road.

Paul had to obey and go where Jesus told him to go.

Paul did not eat or drink for three days and he spent his time praying.

I can imagine what his prayers sounded like. He was probably repenting for his sins profusely.

I am using the term "saved" the way it is utilized by most denominations. I agree that repentance is necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you believe one can stop believing and still be a believer?

That is not what we are discussing. Let us look at this verse which demonstrates that when a person believes then at that time he receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Once a person believes he possesses eternal life. And the Lord Jesus says this about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Those to whom the Lord gives eternal life shall never perish. And notice that the Lord's statement there is an "unconditional" statement. He doesn't say that they shall never perish IF they do this or do not do something else. No conditions at all.

So once a person believes then at that moment he has the assurance from the Lord Jesus that he will never perish.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Actually turbo, I find this quote to support continuous belief! I think Jerry just shot himself in the head. The person is a believing person, not an unbelieving one.

Once a person believes he possesses eternal life (Jn.5:24) and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28). So from the very moment when someone believes he possess eternal security.

Besides that, it is ridiculous to even imagine that a true believer could ever stop believing. The faith of the true believer is described as the "evidence" of things not seen. This evidence stands in the power of God (1 Cor.2:5) and not in the wisdom of man. The evidence within the true believer comes in power and in much assurance and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). A true believer knows that there things are true because the Lord has given us an understanding of these things (1 Jn.5:20).

The "evidence" possessed by the true believe is better than any evidence which anyone has about anything in the temporal sphere. That is why we read this:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).​

 

[jamie]

I see no defintion of that word which is "obedience."

Is Jesus' gospel about obedience?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I said:

No, the LORD knows the hearts of men (1 Ki.8:39) and he gives eternal life to true believers when they believe (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).​

To this you said:

I am going deeper. Let us talk about the deeper things of God and not just what you think it says.

What I think it says? Do you deny that once a person believes he possesses eternal life (see John 5:24)?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (see Jn.10:28)?

 

[jamie]

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (see Jn.10:28)?

Do you deny that salvation is our choice?

What if a person decides he or she does not want to live forever? Then what?

 

[God's Truth]

I said:

No, the LORD knows the hearts of men (1 Ki.8:39) and he gives eternal life to true believers when they believe (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).​

To this you said:



What I think it says? Do you deny that once a person believes he possesses eternal life (see John 5:24)?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (see Jn.10:28)?

Belief alone verses belief with obedience is NOT what saves.

Belief alone that Jesus makes us clean verses the ceremonial works is what saves.

 

[God's Truth]

I said:

No, the LORD knows the hearts of men (1 Ki.8:39) and he gives eternal life to true believers when they believe (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).​

To this you said:



What I think it says? Do you deny that once a person believes he possesses eternal life (see John 5:24)?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (see Jn.10:28)?

If we keep obeying Jesus we will not lose our salvation. We have to stay in him.