The Public School SYSTEM

[Greywolf]

I've heard of parents of 5-6 year-olds that attend that school having to answer the question, "Mommy, is that a man or a woman?" A five-year-old has enough to learn about without having to add how to tell women that look like men from men.

There are also straight women who look like men, so unless the gym teacher in question's homosexuality is interfering with the child's ability to learn I still don't see a problem. Anyway, it seems to me that if you were concerned about your child's views on homosexuality, abortion, cloning, etc..., that it would make more sense for you to let your children be exposed to other people's views on those things while they are still young and easily influenced by your views, rather than isolating them from other views until they are adults and you rarely ever see or talk to them?

While I'm not an evolutionist, that's not what I'm complaining about. I'm complaining about the fact that he tells his students his moral opinion about controversial issues such as abortion and cloning.

I agree, the classroom is a place for facts, not opinions, but sometimes the issue does come up and I've even seen students flat out ask for a teacher's opinion on the subject.

There is a difference. Parents are the teachers, very few if any of them are certified teachers. You use a Christian curriculum, and the students are still taught some subjects at home by their parents.

What do you mean by "Christian curriculum"?

While not all homeschoolers are knowledgeable, the majority of them care about their children and try to do what's best for them.

There is a difference between trying and succeeding though, and whether or not whoever is teaching the subject is knowledgeable about the subject is usually the deciding factor between the two.

 

[Lighthouse]

Christian agnostc? Is that someone who wonders whether or not the Christian God exists?

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Zakath

Christine,

How is one a "Christian agnostic"? That must be an interestingly broad view of both the terms. :chuckle:

Well, it almost sounds like an aximoron. He says that ,in his eyes, Christianity is made up of faith and good works. He has the good works but lacks the faith to believe, thus calling himself a Christian agnostic.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Greywolf

There are also straight women who look like men, so unless the gym teacher in question's homosexuality is interfering with the child's ability to learn I still don't see a problem. Anyway, it seems to me that if you were concerned about your child's views on homosexuality, abortion, cloning, etc..., that it would make more sense for you to let your children be exposed to other people's views on those things while they are still young and easily influenced by your views, rather than isolating them from other views until they are adults and you rarely ever see or talk to them?

I have no intention of sheltering my future children from such things. However, that doesn't mean I would want them to be taught something by a homosexual. I would rather that they learn about these things for the first time from me and their father, not from a school teacher.

I agree, the classroom is a place for facts, not opinions, but sometimes the issue does come up and I've even seen students flat out ask for a teacher's opinion on the subject.

I don't know if that's how it was in those situations or not. If the students want the teacher's opinion on a subject, it might be best asked after class.

What do you mean by "Christian curriculum"?

School books that teach Christian homeschooled children from a Christian perspective. There are many different publishers out there today. The difference would be that the child would learn about creation, the flaws of evolution, see the Biblical view of many other issues, and learn about sex from a Biblical view. All the core subjects would still be taught, and there are even a great many electives avaible.

There is a difference between trying and succeeding though, and whether or not whoever is teaching the subject is knowledgeable about the subject is usually the deciding factor between the two.

Why does the teacher need to be knowledgeable about the subject?

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Christian agnostc? Is that someone who wonders whether or not the Christian God exists?

Lighthouse, I think I answered this in my post to Zakath. It's not that he doesn't believe that there is a God (he says he believes there is some higher power out there somewhere) but that he doesn't have the faith to believe in God.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Christine

Well, it almost sounds like an aximoron. He says that ,in his eyes, Christianity is made up of faith and good works. He has the good works but lacks the faith to believe, thus calling himself a Christian agnostic.

Thanks for the reply.

An "agnostic" does not lack faith, but knowledge. The word is was coined from two greek parts "a", meaning "without", and "gnosis", meaning "knowledge". Generally, agnostics are those who do not think there is sufficient evidence to foster belief in deity, but will not go as far as atheists and say that they do not believe in gods at all.

Faith need not enter the equation an agnostic. I think your acquaintance is not using a label that is either helpful or accurate.

What he is, it appears, is an infidel (non-believer) who follows some Christian teachings.

There are many people who follow some of the Christian teachings without expressing or possessing faith in the Christian deity.

BTW, that's "oxymoron".

 

[Greywolf]

I have no intention of sheltering my future children from such things. However, that doesn't mean I would want them to be taught something by a homosexual. I would rather that they learn about these things for the first time from me and their father, not from a school teacher.

I still don't see what difference it makes whether or not a teacher is gay as long as they do their job. I realize that everybody has a different style of parenting, but if I were worried that my child may have a gay teacher, then I'd discuss it with my child before the school year began. I wouldn't imagine that gay teachers would spend class time on the topic of homosexuality unless it was relevant to another lesson, but I could be wrong. Maybe your father can provide some insight on that.

I don't know if that's how it was in those situations or not. If the students want the teacher's opinion on a subject, it might be best asked after class.

I disagree. Sometimes questions give the teacher an opportunity to touch on some interesting related topics, and sometimes lead to some interesting discussions that are beneficial to the class.

School books that teach Christian homeschooled children from a Christian perspective. There are many different publishers out there today. The difference would be that the child would learn about creation, the flaws of evolution, see the Biblical view of many other issues, and learn about sex from a Biblical view. All the core subjects would still be taught, and there are even a great many electives avaible.

As far as creationism is concerned, I don't think that there is enough evidence to consider it a science, but that's a topic for another debate. I figured that learning about things such as sex from a Biblical perspective would just be a part of growing up as a Christian and going to church. It was for me. Out of curiosity, what are some publishers who create material for Christian homeschooling?

Why does the teacher need to be knowledgeable about the subject?

So that he/she can teach the subject accurately and comprehensively.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Greywolf

I still don't see what difference it makes whether or not a teacher is gay as long as they do their job. I realize that everybody has a different style of parenting, but if I were worried that my child may have a gay teacher, then I'd discuss it with my child before the school year began. I wouldn't imagine that gay teachers would spend class time on the topic of homosexuality unless it was relevant to another lesson, but I could be wrong. Maybe your father can provide some insight on that.

I'll ask him.

I disagree. Sometimes questions give the teacher an opportunity to touch on some interesting related topics, and sometimes lead to some interesting discussions that are beneficial to the class.

True

As far as creationism is concerned, I don't think that there is enough evidence to consider it a science, but that's a topic for another debate.

Have you looked at this thread any? http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=10657

I figured that learning about things such as sex from a Biblical perspective would just be a part of growing up as a Christian and going to church. It was for me.

Out of curiosity, what denomination were you raised?

Out of curiosity, what are some publishers who create material for Christian homeschooling?

Probably one of the biggest is Abeka out of Florida. Bob Jones University Press is also quite large. Then there's Alpha Omega, who publishes computers classes known as Switched on Schoolhouse. Christian Light Publications, a mennonite publishing house, may very easily produce more elective courses than any other publisher. There are many, many more publishers out there, these are just some of the more well known ones. Many of these publishers also produce material for Christian schools.

So that he/she can teach the subject accurately and comprehensively.

Would you consider the teacher to be unqualified if he is not fluent in that subject?

 

[Greywolf]

Out of curiosity, what denomination were you raised?

Lutheran

Have you looked at this thread any? http://www.theologyonline.com/forum...?threadid=10657

Yeah. I accidentally started posting on that thread without realizing that I needed permission.:doh:
The evidence presented there in support of creationism didn't convince me.

Would you consider the teacher to be unqualified if he is not fluent in that subject?

It would certainly help. My Spanish I and II teacher was not fluent in Spanish, and while she definitely knew more Spanish than we did, there were several times that she could not answer some of our questions. The Spanish III teacher, however, was fluent in Spanish, which IMHO made her class a lot better. So I think that someone does not *have* to be fluent, but it makes for a much better class if they are.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Greywolf

Lutheran

Thanks. I don't know how the Lutherans do it, but in all the churches I've been to (I don't attend ) there wasn't much brought up about sex ed from the Bible. I know every kid in church probably knew that sex before marriage was wrong, but that seems like the extent of it.

Yeah. I accidentally started posting on that thread without realizing that I needed permission.:doh:

If you still want to post there, feel free. We've opened it up so that anyone can post there, provided they stay on the topic of creation vs. evoluton.

It would certainly help. My Spanish I and II teacher was not fluent in Spanish, and while she definitely knew more Spanish than we did, there were several times that she could not answer some of our questions. The Spanish III teacher, however, was fluent in Spanish, which IMHO made her class a lot better. So I think that someone does not *have* to be fluent, but it makes for a much better class if they are.

I see your point with foreign languages. My dad minored in Latin, and it's great to have him around when I'm studying Latin, but Dad did not take Greek and Hebrew, the other two foreign languages I'm studying. However, pronunciation of those particulaur languages doesn't matter since we want to learn how to read it, not speak it. If someone doesn't have the advantage of knowing someone that speaks the language fluently, they might be able to get a good understanding from tapes.

 

[Greywolf]

quote: Gahndi was just flat out evil. ...His teachings on Jesus Christ were blasphemous. He was the kind of guy who was a control freak. And he said, "Do what I want you to do or I'll hurt myself. Do what I tell you to do or I'll kill myself. I'll starve myself to death and it will be your fault." That's a control freak. That's a manipulator. It's everything negative. ...And he's in Hell right now.

But God says, "Do what I want you to do or I'll put you in hell forever and it will be your fault". Does that make God an evil control freak? It seems hypocritical to me.

 

[Greywolf]

Thanks. I don't know how the Lutherans do it, but in all the churches I've been to (I don't attend ) there wasn't much brought up about sex ed from the Bible. I know every kid in church probably knew that sex before marriage was wrong, but that seems like the extent of it.

That's true, the subject doesn't come up in church services all that often (in the Lutheran denomination anyway), but when a kid is about 13 or 14 they go through Confirmation for about two years, and the subject is discussed there.

 

[Zakath]

In parochial (Roman Catholic) schools, sex ed usually happens about 7th grade or so as part of science or health class. The moral issues are dealt with in religion class.

For their religious ed (aka Sunday School for you Protestants) they spend much more time on the morality issue than the mechanics, but usually about the same age.

 

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
Oh yeah, and Jefferson, if you don't mind, here's a gentle chide: the title of this thread has a typo

I've looked at the title 20 times trying to find the typo and just now saw it. It was supposed to be the "pubic" school system, not the "public" school system. :doh:

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Jefferson

I've looked at the title 20 times trying to find the typo and just now saw it. It was supposed to be the "pubic" school system, not the "public" school system. :doh:

Sheesh, Jefferson! NOW you tell us! :doh:

Don't worry, it happens to everyone now and then.

 

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Nineveh

I did... maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, that story about the kindergartener was sad

Was it last Friday (1-16-04) Mr. Enyart was talking about a teacher who smacked a teenager up side the head for unplugging the projector? Well, it seems to be a trend:

A Clayton County first-grade teacher faces criminal charges for grabbing and shaking the head of a 6-year-old student in her class.

cite

I guess until there is 100% Ritalin complience some kids will just "get outta line".

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Zakath
I'd appreciate that, thanks. :thumb:

Zakath, this is what I found from http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/HomeSchool/reasons.asp I think it might be a government website.
Parents may homeschool their children for a number of reasons. Previous studies suggest that the most common reasons that parents give for homeschooling their children are moral or religious reasons, a desire for high educational achievement, dissatisfaction with public schools' instructional program, and concerns about school environment, including safety, drugs, and peer pressure (Lines 2000a, Grubb 1998, Mayberry 1991).
If you click on where it says "figure 2" you can see a graph showing the data. According to this, religious reasons was second only to parents believing they could give their children a better education at home. However, in this study, participants were allowed to give more than one answer.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Greywolf

I still don't see what difference it makes whether or not a teacher is gay as long as they do their job. I realize that everybody has a different style of parenting, but if I were worried that my child may have a gay teacher, then I'd discuss it with my child before the school year began. I wouldn't imagine that gay teachers would spend class time on the topic of homosexuality unless it was relevant to another lesson, but I could be wrong. Maybe your father can provide some insight on that.

Greywolf, I asked my dad about this. My dad said the impact a sodomite teacher would have on the class will depend partially on how old the students are and if the teacher is open with his lifestyle. He also said that if a sodomite strayed from the lesson to discuss sodomy, he could probably get in trouble. In math class, you discuss math, not sodomy.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Christine

Zakath, this is what I found from http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/HomeSchool/reasons.asp I think it might be a government website.
Parents may homeschool their children for a number of reasons. Previous studies suggest that the most common reasons that parents give for homeschooling their children are moral or religious reasons, a desire for high educational achievement, dissatisfaction with public schools' instructional program, and concerns about school environment, including safety, drugs, and peer pressure (Lines 2000a, Grubb 1998, Mayberry 1991).
If you click on where it says "figure 2" you can see a graph showing the data. According to this, religious reasons was second only to parents believing they could give their children a better education at home. However, in this study, participants were allowed to give more than one answer.

Great research, Christine! :thumb:

Yes, NCES is the National Center for Educational Statistics, part of the U.S. Department of Education. I have acted as a consultant for them over the years.

According to the NCES study then, the main or primary reason was quality of education, not religious reasons. Additionaly if you look at the most commonly cited reasons, concerns about the quality of education are two of the top three reasons. It seems that homeschooling parents are very concerned about educational quality.

Just so you are familiar with the players in this game:

"Lines" is Patricia M. Lines used to work for NCES and is now a fellow at the Discovery Institute (chuckle). I'm chuckling because of the Discovery Institute's agenda which I discussed in another thread.

"Grubb" is Deborah J. Grubb an assistant Professor of Education from Morehead State University who wrote a paper "Homeschooling: Who and Why?" which was presented in 1988 at the Mid-States Educational Research Association conference.

"Mayberry" is Maria Mayberry, a recent (2001) University of Texas Austin Ph.D. student. But I cannot find anything else on her more current than 2001. She does not appear to be on staff at UTA now.

[Edited to correct typos - Z ]

 

[Greywolf]

Greywolf, I asked my dad about this.

Thanks. :up:

My dad said the impact a sodomite teacher would have on the class will depend partially on how old the students are and if the teacher is open with his lifestyle.

Out of curiosity, what kind of impact do you think that a gay teacher would have if he/she stuck to teaching the subject? And by "open with his lifestyle" do you mean that people know he/she's gay or that he/she talks about his lifestyle all the time?

He also said that if a sodomite strayed from the lesson to discuss sodomy, he could probably get in trouble. In math class, you discuss math, not sodomy.

I fully agree. I always assumed that that would be the case, but it's good to have it confirmed by someone with experience in the education field.