Thoroughly and many times.
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Thoroughly and many times.
Who decides that?
What scriptures do you and others cite that use the word 'remnant' to refer to believers in the church today?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
So why do you disingenuosly ask who they might be, if you already know . . .?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Romans 11:5
...which refers to a believing remnant of Israel, as 'remnant' most of the time does throughout Scripture.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But Paul says that "us" is both Jew and Gentile now, and that a person stands (keeps in the 'tree') by faith. The idea related to the apostasy (departure) is that a remnant remains. It never was trying to say that race determined it (in either old or new covenant eras), but while speaking to 1st century Judaism, the apostles had to say it was not the race that mattered, to say the obvious.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
So, the definition of "remnant" is Jewish believers in God, right?
Not biological or national Israel, but believing Israelites . . right?
Thus, the definition of the "remnant" is spiritual. Defining only the faithful according to the "election of grace," correct?
Now that's the dialectic triadic movement expressed eloquently.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Took you some time to come up with that irrelevant response, Steko.
But pj thinks it sounds good!
Amusing . .
Ro 11:1-10, which includes 11:5, is speaking exclusively of ethnic Israel believing and unbelieving.
One can't justifiably reach out and grab the later parts of Ro 11 or even Eph 2 and cram it into Ro 11:1-10 without some sort of dialectic monkey business.
Interplanner
Well-known member
That's because at that time and generation, you have to speak to the mistakes of that kind of Judaism. They thought it was race-based; that problem has to be addressed. I mentioned that in the quote.
There is a world of difference between saying that idea was in inter-testament, post-exile Judaism (where Paul grew up) and that it was in the Promise to start with. It was not. So it has to be de-tangled, un-made from what Paul is teaching. Meaning, at certain points he has to speak about the race as such.
The one thing Paul wants us to know in Acts 13, Gal 3, Rom 4, Rom 9 is that 'all nations will be blessed in you' PREDATES the Judaism he grew up in and which is mistaken about it. Even the you is CHRIST, singular.
All these things are persistence rebellions by D'ism about the text and are in my list of 10 scriptures about which D'ism is shamelessly destructive.
The remnant which Paul writes about in Romans 11: 1-5 is the remnant of Old Covenant Israel, with which God began the New Covenant. But this remnant of Old Covenant Israel was changed, as was Paul, and no longer followed "kata sarka," or, according to the flesh.
When Paul says in Romans 10: 10-12 that "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him," he means this.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27.For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 26-28
For the elect of God, those who are saved and changed, there is no longer a partition between Jews and Gentiles among those of faith. "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" Ephesians 2: 13-16
That there is no longer a separation between Jews of faith and non-Jews of faith is a fundamental doctrine of the Gospel of Christ and a starting doctrine of the Everlasting New Covenant. To argue against this fundamental doctrine and say there now remains a separation is to go off into heresy and false doctrine.
And - under that doctrine stated in Romans 10: 12, in Galatians 3: 28 and in Ephesians 2: 14 the remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 becomes one with that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and in Revelation 7: 4-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. That New Covenant remnant is called out in Revelation 18: 4. What the remnant is called out of is seen in Revelation 18: 23.
When Paul says in Romans 10: 10-12 that "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him," he means this.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27.For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 26-28
For the elect of God, those who are saved and changed, there is no longer a partition between Jews and Gentiles among those of faith. "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" Ephesians 2: 13-16
That there is no longer a separation between Jews of faith and non-Jews of faith is a fundamental doctrine of the Gospel of Christ and a starting doctrine of the Everlasting New Covenant. To argue against this fundamental doctrine and say there now remains a separation is to go off into heresy and false doctrine.
And - under that doctrine stated in Romans 10: 12, in Galatians 3: 28 and in Ephesians 2: 14 the remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 becomes one with that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and in Revelation 7: 4-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. That New Covenant remnant is called out in Revelation 18: 4. What the remnant is called out of is seen in Revelation 18: 23.
Interplanner
Well-known member
"Us" in Rom 9 ends up being all believers in Christ, v26. He clearly shows the fellowship of all those who have faith. The four OT quotes are showing the same.
D'ism can't stand to have this doctrine survive. It has to reinforce separation and partition to survive. It is toxic. Either it denies it or it outlines a thing called the BOC and says 'oh, that's a mystery no one knew was coming--not even the 4 quotes in Rom 9, which is intra-Israel--and BOC will be 'removed' right before the story goes back to the Judaism Paul preached against, because, you see, it was right all along.'
It makes your head feel like it broke.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Suggested edit: Remnant is faith-based. These people don't appreciate what the word 'spiritual' means, even when similar to Heb 11:19 or is actually used in I Cor 10:3, 4.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Total amen.
It's just that they think this is 'temporarily' true as an unforeseen 'mystery' that will be out of the way so the previous categories can proceed, because otherwise we make God a big liar.
Solution: Paul not only taught what you just said as the current truth, but also said that 'all nations will be blessed in you' pre-dates what IT, post-exile, Judaism thought. He would know. He grew up in it. IT, P-E Judaism RT'd the Promise and made the Law trump it. It also said the Seed was the race, the descendants. Not. It was Christ. Neither Christ as Seed was mystery nor was the intake of the Gentiles--except to IT, P-E Judaism.
I'm afraid its too much history for the high priest STP and his make up kit.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
May as well face the facts:
1. Mystery of Christ- that Christ was dying for the sins of Israel, and Gentiles associated with Israel. This mystery was hidden in the scriptures of the prophets.
2. Mystery of the Gospel- that Christ died for all men, to be testified in due time, including Gentiles never associated with Israel whatsoever. This mystery was not hidden in the prophets, but was hidden in God.
Put down your commentaries, and pick up a KJB, and believe what you read.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I am not a priest, in any way, shape, or form. You don't know anyone who is.
I'm an ambassador.
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