ECT The Neo-MADs and Romans 16:7: 'In Chrisr Before Me'

[Jerry Shugart]

In the following verse Paul speaks about other Jews who were "in Christ" before he was:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

In the following passage Paul says the following:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

Since Paul said that if "anyone" is "in Christ" he is a new creature then he would remain consistent in the way he used the term "in Christ" when he wrote about people being "in Christ." If he did use the term "in Christ" one way when speaking of people being "in Christ" and then turn around and use it in an entirely different sense then that would lead to confusion, and the LORD is not the author of confusion.

It is not difficult to understand what it means to be in Christ when Paul speaks of people being "in Christ" when we look at the following words of Paul:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of other Jews being "in Christ" before he was we can understand that he was saying that others were in the Body of Christ before he was. Besides that, at Romans 5:11 Paul speaks of a believing "remnant" of Jews and in the following passage Paul speaks of two groups being reconciled unto God in "one Body":

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Of course the two groups in this passage are the believing remnant of Romans 11:5 and the believing Gentiles. Who else could those two groups be?

Of course the Neo-MADs on this forum refuse to tell us the identity of the two groups. These same Neo-MADs also say that the believing Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite what we read in the following verse:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The Neo-MADs evidently don't know the meaning of the word "whosoever" in this verse or they don't want to know its meaning because they just flat out refuse to believe those words.

And then they have the audacity to declare that they believe the Bible. They are the biggest hypocrites on this forum and the next time one of them attacks you like they attack everyone who doesn't agree with them then just quote John 3:16 and ask them if they know the meaning of the word "whosoever."

 

[Right Divider]

In the following verse Paul speaks about other Jews who were "in Christ" before he was:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

In the following passage Paul says the following:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

Since Paul said that if "anyone" is "in Christ" he is a new creature then he would remain consistent in the way he used the term "in Christ" when he wrote about people being "in Christ." If he did use the term "in Christ" one way when speaking of people being "in Christ" and then turn around and use it in an entirely different sense then that would lead to confusion, and the LORD is not the author of confusion.

It is not difficult to understand what it means to be in Christ when Paul speaks of people being "in Christ" when we look at the following words of Paul:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of other Jews being "in Christ" before he was we can understand that he was saying that others were in the Body of Christ before he was. Besides that, at Romans 5:11 Paul speaks of a believing "remnant" of Jews and in the following passage Paul speaks of two groups being reconciled unto God in "one Body":

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Of course the two groups in this passage are the believing remnant of Romans 11:5 and the believing Gentiles. Who else could those two groups be?

Of course the Neo-MADs on this forum refuse to tell us the identity of the two groups. These same Neo-MADs also say that the believing Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite what we read in the following verse:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The Neo-MADs evidently don't know the meaning of the word "whosoever" in this verse or they don't want to know its meaning because they just flat out refuse to believe those words.

And then they have the audacity to declare that they believe the Bible. They are the biggest hypocrites on this forum and the next time one of them attacks you like they attack everyone who doesn't agree with them then just quote John 3:16 and ask them if they know the meaning of the word "whosoever."

Feeling starved for attention again Jerry?

Who was the first member of the body of Christ? Was it Noah? Was is David? Was it Peter? Who was it?

Help us out Jerry, because some of us believe Paul when he tells us that he is the pattern for those that should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.

 

[john w]

And then they have the audacity to declare that they believe the Bible. They are the biggest hypocrites on this forum and the next time one of them attacks you like they attack everyone who doesn't agree with them then just quote John 3:16 and ask them if they know the meaning of the word "whosoever."

No, you pathetic con artist, as you continue your deceptive, satanic debating ploy, like your pal Pate, of asserting, that since others do not believe your interpretation/understanding, of a particular passage, group of passages(after, of course, you've corrected that passage/those passages, so that they agree with your interpretation), others don't "believe the bible."

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

attacks you like they attack everyone who doesn't agree with

No, that would be you, actress, as your MO on TOL, is to "attack" us "Neo-MADs, on every "thread" you start, as your "ministry" is one of condescension, attempting to divide the brethren, and you are not in the least honouring the LORD God with what you spam, as a spoiled brat, having a temper tantrum. Your prime objective is to "show off," to satisfy your drive to elevate yourself as important on this board, and, in hypocrisy, cry, "You don't believe the bible!!!!," all the while, correcting each, and every bible, on which you get your grubby hands, not believing any one of them, correcting them all, as you correct everyone on this site, as you shout,"See!! I am some 'great one!'"(Acts 8;9 KJV).

Take a bow, Jer, AKA, Simon.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Feeling starved for attention again Jerry?

Why are you so eager to talk about me instead of the Scriptures?

I guess you think that if you do that no one will notice that all you do is run and hide from the verses which I quoted and my comments on them.

Who was the first member of the body of Christ? Was it Noah? Was is David? Was it Peter? Who was it?

It wasn't Paul as you and your fellow Neo-MADs teach because he said in no uncertain terms that there were other Jews in Christ before He was.

Help us out Jerry, because some of us believe Paul when he tells us that he is the pattern for those that should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.

He was a "pattern" which demonstrated the longsuffering of the LORD:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).​

Paul is saying that he was chosen of God to be an example of the extent of His grace, that if the LORD would save His greatest enemy then anyone can be saved.

But in order to be saved a person MUST believe the Lord. And you obviously do not believe that "whosoever" believes have eternal life and shall not perish because you and the rest of the Neo-MADs teach that the Jewish believers who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
​

You remain what Paul calls a "natural man" (1 Corinthians 2:14) because you cannot understand the clear words of the Lord Jesus Christ when He told the Jews who lived under the law EXACTLY how they received the following spiritual blessings:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

You call yourself a Christian but the truth that you are not cannot be any plainer because you do not believe what He teaches. You put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually teach.

I only have pity for you but I want to warn others of your false teaching.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

For what? For believing the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

I would say that you should be ashamed of yourself but since you remain a natural man and are incapable of understanding the Lord Jesus' words which prove that those who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone I know that you are incapable of being ashamed that your teaching contradict His words.

You remain proud and unsaved.

 

[Right Divider]

Why are you so eager to talk about me instead of the Scriptures?

Primarily because you're on a Jacob/Squeakyesk posting rampage against those that don't bow before your ideas.

I guess you think that if you do that no one will notice that all you do is run and hide from the verses which I quoted and my comments on them.

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. You're not the "only true believer" Jerry.

It wasn't Paul as you and your fellow Neo-MADs teach because he said in no uncertain terms that there were other Jews in Christ before He was.

Beating around the bush much? WHO was it? The body of Christ is a critically important doctrine for this dispensation, wouldn't you say? Why won't you just tell us WHO it is?

He was a "pattern" which demonstrated the longsuffering of the LORD:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).​

Paul is saying that he was chosen of God to be an example of the extent of His grace, that if the LORD would save His greatest enemy then anyone can be saved.

So you think that Paul was the greatest enemy of God? Got any scripture to support that claim?

But in order to be saved a person MUST believe the Lord. And you obviously do not believe that "whosoever" believes have eternal life and shall not perish because you and the rest of the Neo-MADs teach that the Jewish believers who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
​

You remain what Paul calls a "natural man" (1 Corinthians 2:14) because you cannot understand the clear words of the Lord Jesus Christ when He told the Jews who lived under the law EXACTLY how they received the following spiritual blessings:

You are a false accuser Jerry, like many here. I guess that you are RP are in charge of determining the eternal destiny of others.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

You call yourself a Christian but the truth that you are not cannot be any plainer because you do not believe what He teaches. You put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually teach.

I only have pity for you but I want to warn others of your false teaching.

I believe that eternal life is always by faith. I just don't believe the rest of your spin.

According to you, an Israelite could just claim faith and ignore the law all along. There is something completely missing from your story.

I personally believe that is was possible for Israelite's to keep the law, and at the SAME TIME they are not justified before God by doing such.

Luk 1:5-6 KJV There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.​

Remember that the law included what they had do when they broke the law. Keeping the law did NOT mean never sinning, but it meant that the law had to be followed as to what they had to do when the did sin.

Keeping the law did not mean that they didn't sin and sin was dealt with by the cross.

 

[Right Divider]

You remain proud and unsaved.

Sounds like you're playing God there Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Beating around the bush much? WHO was it? The body of Christ is a critically important doctrine for this dispensation, wouldn't you say? Why won't you just tell us WHO it is?

I believe that the whole company of Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ at Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned and that was the same time when Israel was temporarily set aside. Let us look at the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mt.12:31-32).​

In The Berean Searchlight Win Johnson wrote:

"These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).

"But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven" (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).
​

The "unpardonable sin" was committed at Acts 7, and I believe that at that point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. I believe that at that time the Holy Spirit baptized all believers into the Church, which is His Body. After all, Paul himself speaks of those who were "in Christ" before he was. Now I have answered you perhaps you will actually step up to the plate like a man and address what I said previously about this verse:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

In the following passage Paul says the following:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

Since Paul said that if "anyone" is "in Christ" he is a new creature then he would remain consistent in the way he used the term "in Christ" when he wrote about people being "in Christ." If he did use the term "in Christ" one way when speaking of people being "in Christ" and then turn around and use it in an entirely different sense then that would lead to confusion, and the LORD is not the author of confusion.

It is not difficult to understand what it means to be in Christ when Paul speaks of people being "in Christ" when we look at the following words of Paul:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of other Jews being "in Christ" before he was we can understand that he was saying that others were in the Body of Christ before he was.

 

[Right Divider]

I believe that the whole company of Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ at Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned and that was the same time when Israel was temporarily set aside.

Please document this "the whole company of Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ at Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned".

I can see that you are telling a crazy fairy tale the more we dig into your beliefs.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sounds like you're playing God there Jerry.

I'm only pointing out that the Scriptures declare that those who do not believe are not saved. And those in the Neo-Acts community do not believe and cannot understand the Lord Jesus' plain words which I quoted when He spoke to the Jews under the law and told them that "believing" and believing alone resulted in their salvation.

I know children who can not only understand His words and also believe them but the meaning of His words are hidden from you and the rest of the Neo-MAD group. So sad!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please document this "the whole company of Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ at Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned".

I can see that you are telling a crazy fairy tale the more we dig into your beliefs.

I did already explain it and you continue to run and hide from the following words of Paul:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

In the following passage Paul says the following:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

Since Paul said that if "anyone" is "in Christ" he is a new creature then he would remain consistent in the way he used the term "in Christ" when he wrote about people being "in Christ." If he did use the term "in Christ" one way when speaking of people being "in Christ" and then turn around and use it in an entirely different sense then that would lead to confusion, and the LORD is not the author of confusion.

It is not difficult to understand what it means to be in Christ when Paul speaks of people being "in Christ" when we look at the following words of Paul:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of other Jews being "in Christ" before he was we can understand that he was saying that others were in the Body of Christ before he was.

You continue to run and hide from what I said and pretend that I never answered. You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion about what is taught in the Bible because you reman a natural man (1Cor.2:14) and you even admit that you haven't been born again!!!

 

[john w]

For what? For believing the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
.

No, and you know what TOL members are talking about, snake-For this satanic, deceitful debating ploy, you engager in sophistry:

And then they have the audacity to declare that they believe the Bible.

Slower:No, you pathetic con artist, as you continue your deceptive, satanic debating ploy, like your pal Pate, of asserting, that since others do not believe your interpretation/understanding, of a particular passage, group of passages(after, of course, you've corrected that passage/those passages, so that they agree with your interpretation), others don't "believe the bible."

You pathetic punk, false accuser, divider of the brethren.


Go ahead, Jer-start another thread, "arguing," that since others do not accept your interpretation of the bible, they do not believe the bible.


Go ahead, pole cat. Do it.


You won't. If you do, I/others, will expose you, for what you are.

 

[musterion]

Acts 2 folks are among the most arrogant (ask me how I know that) with their inconsistent smattering of disp'ism. It lets them be experts and picking and choosing which parts of Israel's stuff to rob (born again, New Covenant, etc), and which to say "Naw, that ain't for us."

 

[john w]

You remain proud and unsaved.

And you can stick your dung, up where the sun does not shine, you pierce of satanic trash, doing your father, lord satan's, dirty work, you disgusting liar.

 

[john w]

In The Berean Searchlight Win Johnson wrote:

"These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).

"But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven" (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).
​

Vs.

You only prove that you place more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

You flaming hypocrite, two faced actress, whited wall, as you spam the above word-for-word spam, which you post on every thread, right after you quote Pentecost, O'Hair,"the Greek," Professor Nicodemus, The Berean Searchlight......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................(ran out of room; besides, it is against TOL rules, to post a 5 page reply)

 

[john w]

I'm only pointing out that the Scriptures declare that those who do not believe are not saved.

No, you pathetic liar- you are "only pointing out" that you "believe" the scriptures declare that those who do not believe your interpretation of the scriptures are not saved.

Viper. False accuser.

 

[john w]

Sounds like you're playing God there Jerry.

Yes, Jer. Go ahead and "prove" that I am unsaved,or other "Neo MADSs" are unsaved, and that you are saved.


Go ahead. Lay it out for us. Name names.

 

[musterion]

Acts 2 folks ofdten oubt the salvation of MADs.

Ain't that right, Jerry?

 

[Right Divider]

I'm only pointing out that the Scriptures declare that those who do not believe are not saved. And those in the Neo-Acts community do not believe and cannot understand the Lord Jesus' plain words which I quoted when He spoke to the Jews under the law and told them that "believing" and believing alone resulted in their salvation.

You are WRONG about our belief. You are either honestly stupid or dishonest.

We claim to be saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves. And YET you brand us "unsaved".

I know children who can not only understand His words and also believe them but the meaning of His words are hidden from you and the rest of the Neo-MAD group. So sad!

Saved by grace through faith Jerry. That's not sad. What's sad is that you don't believe the Bible and always feel the need to "correct" it (along with anyone that believes it just the way that it is).

 

[Right Divider]

I did already explain it and you continue to run and hide from the following words of Paul:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

In the following passage Paul says the following:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

Since Paul said that if "anyone" is "in Christ" he is a new creature then he would remain consistent in the way he used the term "in Christ" when he wrote about people being "in Christ." If he did use the term "in Christ" one way when speaking of people being "in Christ" and then turn around and use it in an entirely different sense then that would lead to confusion, and the LORD is not the author of confusion.

It is not difficult to understand what it means to be in Christ when Paul speaks of people being "in Christ" when we look at the following words of Paul:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of other Jews being "in Christ" before he was we can understand that he was saying that others were in the Body of Christ before he was.

You continue to run and hide from what I said and pretend that I never answered. You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion about what is taught in the Bible because you reman a natural man (1Cor.2:14) and you even admit that you haven't been born again!!!

None of this supports your CLAIM that "the whole company of Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ at Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned".

You need to actually support THAT SPECIFIC claim!

P.S. It is funny that YOU claimed that 99% of dispensationalists were Acts 2, when you are showing YOURSELF to be an ACTS 7 dispensationalist!