The Natural Man and the Gospel

[OZOS]

Oh. Does that mean you have no ability to repeat yourself or further engage once you have presented your best argument and retreated?

No, but I had just answered it. Go back a few posts.

 

[OZOS]

OK. Let's not say sinners must repent of sins to be saved, but let's also agree that God will still save sinners who come to Him humbly seeking forgiveness and yet still repent of their sins because that is what they want to do.

If you want to call the blood of Jesus "insufficient" after being cleansed by it, that is up to you.

 

[beloved57]

I agree. Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the whole world in order that sinners who would repent of sins and come to Him for forgiveness could be saved without violating universal laws of justice.

If you agree then your comment was not needed !

 

[beloved57]

In order for a person to believe the gospel he or she must be born again. John wrote that those who believe in CHRIST JESUS were born not of blood (i.e.,natural birth or family ties), nor of the will of the flesh (i.e., ability of man to choose); nor of the will of man(i.e., man as a group could not devise the means); but of GOD Jn 1:12-13. John write again that those who are believing had been born of God 1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The greatest and most undeserved gift on earth is to be given the gift of faith, (i.e. grace) that we might believe. As Paul wrote we believe by the gift of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

 

[marke]

If you want to call the blood of Jesus "insufficient" after being cleansed by it, that is up to you.

If you want to call the blood of Jesus "insufficient" after being cleansed by it, that is up to you.

OK. Let's not say sinners must repent of sins to be saved, but let's also agree that God will still save sinners who come to Him humbly seeking forgiveness and yet still repent of their sins because that is what they want to do.

I don't know why you think I am calling the blood of Jesus insufficient. That is certainly not what I believe.

 

[marke]

In order for a person to believe the gospel he or she must be born again. John wrote that those who believe in CHRIST JESUS were born not of blood (i.e.,natural birth or family ties), nor of the will of the flesh (i.e., ability of man to choose); nor of the will of man(i.e., man as a group could not devise the means); but of GOD Jn 1:12-13. John write again that those who are believing had been born of God 1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The greatest and most undeserved gift on earth is to be given the gift of faith, (i.e. grace) that we might believe. As Paul wrote we believe by the gift of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

It is a big error to assume God refuses to offer lost sinners any hope of redemption so He can torture them in hell in wrath forever for refusing to accept salvation on His terms.

 

[JudgeRightly]

In order for a person to believe the gospel he or she must be born again.

Nope.

Scripture NEVER puts belief AFTER being made alive/born again/saved.

Belief ALWAYS comes BEFORE those.

John wrote that those who believe in CHRIST JESUS were born not of blood (i.e.,natural birth or family ties), nor of the will of the flesh (i.e., ability of man to choose); nor of the will of man(i.e., man as a group could not devise the means); but of GOD Jn 1:12-13.

They were born of God BECAUSE they believed, not so that they WOULD believe.

John write again that those who are believing had been born of God 1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

"Whoever believes is born of God."

Not:

"Whoever is born of God believes."

See the difference?

The greatest and most undeserved gift on earth is to be given the gift of faith,

There is no such thing. Stop making stuff up.

(i.e. grace) that we might believe.

Nope. Again, belief before grace is given.

As Paul wrote we believe by the gift of grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Why do you presume that this means "effectual grace"?

It's simply acknowledging that without grace, no one would be able to believe, not that whoever is given grace will believe.

It is gracious for God to send a preacher to the lost (like Paul was sent), to preach the gospel of grace. "By grace you are saved through faith"!

 

[beloved57]

Nope.

Scripture NEVER puts belief AFTER being made alive/born again/saved.

Belief ALWAYS comes BEFORE those.



They were born of God BECAUSE they believed, not so that they WOULD believe.



"Whoever believes is born of God."

Not:

"Whoever is born of God believes."

See the difference?



There is no such thing. Stop making stuff up.



Nope. Again, belief before grace is given.



Why do you presume that this means "effectual grace"?

It's simply acknowledging that without grace, no one would be able to believe, not that whoever is given grace will believe.

It is gracious for God to send a preacher to the lost (like Paul was sent), to preach the gospel of grace. "By grace you are saved through faith"!

Oh Yeah, One must be born again in order to believe the Gospel. The natural man receiveth it not, its foolishness to him, he cant know it because it must be spiritually discened. The natural man doesnt have the Spirit because hes not born again or anew.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Oh Yeah, One must be born again in order to believe the Gospel.

Saying it doesn't make it so, b57!

The natural man receiveth it not, its foolishness to him, he cant know it because it must be spiritually discerned.

The natural man refers to someone who has either never heard the gospel (and so couldn't respond to it anyways, simply because he hasn't heard of it before) or even Christians who have fallen out of their walk with God. If you, as a believer in Christ, walk in the ways of the world, you will not be able to understand spiritually discerned things, because all you have is a natural understanding. I see it all the time with Christians out in the world today, they profess faith in Christ, but they have a worldly understanding, and they cannot understand deeper matters of scripture.

It's like Paul said, one chapter later than the verse you are referencing:

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? - 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians3:1-3&version=NKJV

Paul is having to speak to members of the Body of Christ as if they were carnal people, because they are living worldly lives rather than following Christ!!! They can't handle the meat, so Paul has to feed them milk!

The natural man doesn't have the Spirit because he's not born again or anew.

"Doesn't have" does not imply "cannot have."

 

[beloved57]

1 Cor 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak[The Gospel], not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Men in their natural state cannot comprehend the gospel of Christ because it is a spiritual message directed to a spiritual people. 1Co.2.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[JudgeRightly]

1 Cor 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak[The Gospel], not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Men in their natural state cannot comprehend the gospel of Christ because it is a spiritual message directed to a spiritual people. 1Co.2.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

All the verse is saying is that anyone who does not seek God cannot understand the things of God.

That goes for both unbelievers AND believers alike.

 

[marke]

Oh Yeah, One must be born again in order to believe the Gospel. The natural man receiveth it not, its foolishness to him, he cant know it because it must be spiritually discened. The natural man doesnt have the Spirit because hes not born again or anew.

Sinners must believe and receive the Gospel before they will be given the gift of new life by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[beloved57]

One Gospel writer writes and I agree:

most preaching declares that GOD causes men to be born again after they believe. The scripture is quite clear that the opposite is actually true. Those who are possessors of true faith believe as a result of being born again by the SPIRIT of GOD rather than vice versa. It is impossible for a man to have true faith apart from a supernatural work of GOD to awaken him from the deadness of his natural sinful state. Even as the LORD said to Nicodemus, “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” And then as Paul writes to the Ephesians, “Even when we were dead in sins, (HE) hath quickened us together with Christ, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=831161020444

 

[marke]

One Gospel writer writes and I agree:

God enlightens all sinners and those who have seen the light and reject the light will be damned for that reason alone.

 

[beloved57]

1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

In this scripture the Apostle Paul teaches us that the natural man, the unconverted, unregenerate man who lacks spiritual life by the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are all foolishness to him because he is spiritually dead and in a perverse state by his sinful nature. He cannot know/understand these things because they are spiritually learned.

 

[beloved57]

The Gospel is Light, a glorious light 2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

However man naturally we are darkness Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

And the Darkness doesnt comprehend the light says very wise Man Jn 1:5

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. That word comprehend means:

to make one's own, to take into oneself, appropriate,

1. to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend

Thats why we need to be first regenerated to understand and appropriate the Gospel into a saving conversion experience.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Gospel is Light, a glorious light 2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

However man naturally we are darkness Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

And the Darkness doesnt comprehend the light says very wise Man Jn 1:5

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. That word comprehend means:

to make one's own, to take into oneself, appropriate,

1. to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend

Thats why we need to be first regenerated to understand and appropriate the Gospel into a saving conversion experience.

If this is true, God is unjust.

 

[beloved57]

Since we as men are by nature dead in sin, alienated from God, the very life of God as indicated here Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Being seperated or alienated from the God of light and truth, we can only be alienated in our heart and minds from His Truth, even the Truth of the Word of Truth the Gospel. By nature we are dead to the Spirit of Truth, this is why its imperative that one needs be sanctified by the Holy Spirit, in their minds, wills and affections in order to believe the Truth of the gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See the order here ? Sanctification of the Spirit belief of the Truth, which Truth is the call of the True Gospel.

Jesus made a comment once that many overlook Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

What does this mean ? Everyone that is of the Truth heareth His voice ? Thats a noteworthy qualification

Remember He said earlier in Chapter 10 Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

That surely means they meet the qualification set forth in Jn 18:37, they are of the Truth. Again just what is that ?

I believe Jn 8:47 answers this question

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The word words is rhēma:

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

So I believe its those who are born of God, that hears Gods words, or Christs living voice, who He is the Truth. I particularly believe the Spirit of Truth is involved here as in the Sanctification of the Spirit in 2 Thess 2:13
So its only those who have been given a new spiritual heart for the truth, by the Spirit of Christ who cleaves to the Truth, who hears Christs voice of call in the Gospel

 

[marke]

Since we as men are by nature dead in sin, alienated from God, the very life of God as indicated here Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Being seperated or alienated from the God of light and truth, we can only be alienated in our heart and minds from His Truth, even the Truth of the Word of Truth the Gospel. By nature we are dead to the Spirit of Truth, this is why its imperative that one needs be sanctified by the Holy Spirit, in their minds, wills and affections in order to believe the Truth of the gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See the order here ? Sanctification of the Spirit belief of the Truth, which Truth is the call of the True Gospel.

Jesus made a comment once that many overlook Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

What does this mean ? Everyone that is of the Truth heareth His voice ? Thats a noteworthy qualification

Remember He said earlier in Chapter 10 Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

That surely means they meet the qualification set forth in Jn 18:37, they are of the Truth. Again just what is that ?

I believe Jn 8:47 answers this question

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The word words is rhēma:

that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

So I believe its those who are born of God, that hears Gods words, or Christs living voice, who He is the Truth. I particularly believe the Spirit of Truth is involved here as in the Sanctification of the Spirit in 2 Thess 2:13
So its only those who have been given a new spiritual heart for the truth, by the Spirit of Christ who cleaves to the Truth, who hears Christs voice of call in the Gospel

God saves those who come to Him in repentance in response to hearing the Word of God preached to their hearts. He loves sinners and is not willing that any should perish and will save all who choose to come to Him for the forgiveness of their sins.