Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Which Scripture?
ECT The Myth of 'Original Sin'
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Which Scripture?
iamaberean
New member
Originally Posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
Scripture points to spiritual death being inherited...
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Scripture points to spiritual death being inherited...
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Something is causing it.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Which view do you espouse? I'd presume Traducianist, since Creationist would mean God is immediately creating souls with pathos.
Especially since you're a Dichotomist, it would seem odd that you think of this topic as Soul Propagation instead of Human Spiration (or some other attendant label), since Dichotomists don't really consider spirit and soul to be distinct (certainly not separate).
If man receives spiration from parental procreation, then it would follow that a regenerate human spirit would procreate after its own condition, just as a non-regenerate human spirit would procreate after its own condition. (And this isn't a contention for anyone being conceived as regenerate, just to make a point about spiration and/ or ensoulment.)
There are many potential facets to this, even within an overall Traducianist view. What I'm asking is for you to delineate that all in detail to demonstrate how the somethinglessness of sin is passed from generation to generation.
A clear definition of sin (in all its grammatical forms) and death (thanatos in particular) would help immeasurably. I'm not sure you understand what sin and death ARE. In fact, I'm not sure anybody I've encountered knows the depths of their meanings to even apply them in usage appropriately.
How are humans spirated physical life with sin in their natures and in their members? Scripture indicates death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned; and there's no sin imputed where there is no law. How is sin imputed without law to a just-conceived oocyte who has not sinned?
In asking you to converse, this is an example of what I'm referring to. Instead of naming a labeled "ism" and insisting I choose one; I'm wanting you to discuss whatever "ism" in some outlined cogent detail to clearly demonstrate how sin is innately reproduced in all bodies and souls at conception.
This is what should be considered Anthropology Proper, just as Theology Proper should include paternity/filiation and spiration/procession, etc. Exactly how does this somethinglessness (hamartia is a- and -meros; a missing share or part) "get in" an oocyte in the womb at fertilization or implantation?
Could you please define hamartia and thanatos, and trace the details in sequence to demonstrate human spiration and filiation, etc.?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
This verse says nothing about spiritual death being inherited, as you seem to think:
Romans 5:12 is indeed speaking about spiritual death, but that death happens as a result of a man's own sin. And that means that he had to be "alive" spiritually prior to dying spiritually.
All infants come out of the womb alive spiritually and do not die spiritually until they sin.
The fact of the matter is that "by one man's transgression sin [an automatic will for transgression against God] entered into the world, and death by sin [evidence all have sinned in Adam]; and so death passed upon all men: for all have sinned," Romans 5:12.
Romans 7:
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 5:
13. [For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Until the Law, by which God would show that all are sinners in Adam, Romans 3 and Romans 7 - and this is an issue of Identity, not, of Behavior - sin was not imputed - nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses.
In what sense did death reign until the Law by which God would later prove all are sinners? What is meant by this? Did death cease to reign when the Law was given? Is that its intended sense?
We know that is not the case... rather; "as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9: 27.
Rather - "death passed upon all men: for all have sinned" - death reigned as a witness that all have sinned.
This is an issue of Progressive Revelation - of "God" speaking on this issue "at sundry times and in divers manners," Hebrews 1:1.
Imputation by the Law being a next stage in proving "all have sinned."
19. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The issue is that of Identity, not of Behavior - made sinners by one man's disobedience, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We are not sinners [Identity] because we sin [Behavior]. Rather; we sin [Behavior] because we are sinners [Identity].
"For he hath made him to be sin for us [Identity], who knew no sin [Behavior]; that we might be made the righteousness of God [Behavior] in him [Identity]." 2 Corinthians 5:21.
The moment we trust in Christ's obedience; we are made one with His Identity in Him, before the Father, by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:
12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 6:
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I could write volumes on this from the Mid-Acts Perspective [when consistently applied] as to the Spirit's One Baptism Identification issue, Eph. 4.
Romans 7:
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 5:
13. [For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Until the Law, by which God would show that all are sinners in Adam, Romans 3 and Romans 7 - and this is an issue of Identity, not, of Behavior - sin was not imputed - nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses.
In what sense did death reign until the Law by which God would later prove all are sinners? What is meant by this? Did death cease to reign when the Law was given? Is that its intended sense?
We know that is not the case... rather; "as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9: 27.
Rather - "death passed upon all men: for all have sinned" - death reigned as a witness that all have sinned.
This is an issue of Progressive Revelation - of "God" speaking on this issue "at sundry times and in divers manners," Hebrews 1:1.
Imputation by the Law being a next stage in proving "all have sinned."
19. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
The issue is that of Identity, not of Behavior - made sinners by one man's disobedience, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We are not sinners [Identity] because we sin [Behavior]. Rather; we sin [Behavior] because we are sinners [Identity].
"For he hath made him to be sin for us [Identity], who knew no sin [Behavior]; that we might be made the righteousness of God [Behavior] in him [Identity]." 2 Corinthians 5:21.
The moment we trust in Christ's obedience; we are made one with His Identity in Him, before the Father, by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:
12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 6:
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I could write volumes on this from the Mid-Acts Perspective [when consistently applied] as to the Spirit's One Baptism Identification issue, Eph. 4.
iamaberean
New member
No scripture to confirm your statement.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Boy how some read their notions into the passages, as you just have.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Tell me what I said about Romans 5:12 that is in error.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
the verses will be searched in vain for the idea that "all have sinned in Adam."
All you did was to add words to the Scriptures which are not there.
Anyone can make the Bible say anything that they want it to say by using your methods!
You mean your endless books will be searched in vain..
Yep, you have just posted your autobiography once more. The Scripture reveals this is an Identity issue. You are the one reading your notions, and that of your endless books into the passages.
You well know, you think you alone are right. We always end up here.
Think I will leave you there and your predictable responses once more.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Bible will be searched in vain for any reference to your idea that all men sinned in Adam.
And of course instead of admitting that I am right you must attack me because you never like to be exposed as teaching false doctrine.
Right; I attacked you. Yeah, okay, sure. You did not say what you said I was guilty of.
The issue in those passages is Identity.
In Adam... In Christ.
The issue in either is "not of works" - is NOT the issue of Behavior.
You just don't see that. Because you read your "learned" notions into the passages in contrast to seeking the principles they are not only operating but point to via their recurrent pattern.
The operating principle in those passages is Identity, not Behavior.
"ALL have sinned" IN Adam - by ONE MAN'S disobedience."
Cross Reference
New member
When considering that blood is the one thing all men have in common, we can understand how, not only sin was advanced by pro-creation by Adam's transgression but also, redemption by Jesus Christ advanced by His Blood, by faith, unto a totally new creation..
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Again, the Bible never says such a thing. Why do you think that you can go around adding words to the Bible which are not there?
You need to learn to deal with the Bible AS IT IS WRITTEN!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No one is a sinner until they sin. And no one is redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus until they believe.