ECT The Man of Romans 7 is a Believer

[God's Truth]

Jesus saves those who believe and obey him. See Acts 5:32, John 14:23, Acts 10:35, Psalm 50:23, Acts 13:26,Matthew 18:3, Luke 13:3, John 15:14, Matthew 12:50,John 13:1,Luke 11:28, John 13:17.

 

[Tambora]

Jesus saves those who trust in His righteousness and not their own righteousness.

Romans 5:18 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus saves those who trust in His righteousness and not their own righteousness.

Romans 5:18 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You cannot nullify scripture with scripture. If one thinks they can do that, then one probably doesn't know scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

I. gave. you. scripture. that. plainly. says. there. were. people. who. obeyed. the. law. blamelessly.

Cool. Then Paul was blameless while persecuting the church. :think:

Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Philipppians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.​

 

[glorydaz]

I'll discuss with ya.
:cheers:

Thank you. I'd enjoy that.

 

[God's Truth]

Cool. Then Paul was blameless while persecuting the church. :think:

Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Philipppians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.​

Paul was a Pharisee. Paul did not get baptized with John's baptism. The Pharisees would not accept the New Covenant and acknowledge Jesus as the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Talk about reading into a thing - you say "he was explaining to the Jews who were upset about his teaching"?

I take it then that they had gotten a copy of Paul's letter to the Romans before he even wrote Romans to them?

Yeah, sure, you know what you are talking about :chuckle:

What? You don't think Paul is capable of addressing the complaints he'd been receiving before he even wrote a letter to Roman? He knew quite well that the Jews were accusing him of teaching against the law.

There were no issues at Rome - their great faith was well known throughout the Roman world.

Paul was giving an in depth study...including the workings of the law.

Rather; Romans anticipates issues that can come up within the life of a believer and or within an assembly that the Romans might be established (equipped in the understanding of such things when they do arise).

There isn't a one of them that hadn't been convicted of their sin and need of a Saviour. That's the purpose of the law of which Paul speaks in Romans 7.

Romans 6: Dead to sin; Romans 7: Dead to the Law; Romans 8; Dead to the Flesh.

You're missing some important points in your little summary.

All three of which comprise the principles of how to look at each of those three issues both individually, as well as, as one unit.

Perhaps you need to look a bit deeper....you've missed some important points.

And Paul had touched on Romans 7 issues some ten years earlier in Galatians; especially in the latter section of Galatians 2.

Of course, which makes it even funnier that you condescendingly inquired whether the Jews had read the letter to the Romans before it was sent.

Galatians being a reminder to the Galatians of all he had established them in the understanding of even earlier than when he wrote Galatians.

So? That has nothing to do with what Paul is expounding on in Romans 7.

The point is that when Paul wrote Romans, he addressed issues his past experiences had long since taught him were likely to come up.

Like the purposes of the law. Which is something you shouldn't ignore in the chapter we are discussing.

It is one of many reasons why Romans is one of the most important Books in all of Scripture.

Then you'd best do some more studying.

1 Corinthians 2 mentions that hidden wisdom God ordained before the world unto our glory - well Romans contains much of that wisdom unto the Body's glory just as Israel's glory had been that aspect of God's will revealed to; through; and for them: The Law.

I know; mumbo jumbo.

You rookie :chuckle:

Unfortunately, you still can't let go of your pride. Believe it or not, Danoh, you do not know it all. I do appreciate your reminding me of that.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul was a Pharisee. Paul did not get baptized with John's baptism. The Pharisees would not accept the New Covenant and acknowledge Jesus as the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

Oops...off into the wild blue yonder again.

Haul it in.

 

[God's Truth]

Oops...off into the wild blue yonder again.

Haul it in.

You compared Paul who obeyed the old law with others who obeyed it with faith.

I am explaining the difference between Paul a law abiding person who tried to destroy the church to those abiding in the law and accepted Jesus.

 

[musterion]

So vain that they end up claiming Paul was a wretched man...sold under sin (when he wrote his letter).

I confess that that would be me, with the understanding that Paul was talking only about the plight of the new man physically trapped until death with the old man [the believer's state], not who he really was as a new creation in Christ [the believer's standing].

That state is shared by all believers just as surely as our standing in Him is. Are we supposed to live in that state as if that's all we are? NO. But for now, that is where we are, physically...tied to flesh while seated with Christ (Rom 7:25, Rom 6:11, Gal 5:1).

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Christ strengthens those whom he saves, and he saves those who believe and obey in him.

You don't earn Jesus or His strength by your efforts. He is received by faith and grace in a contrite trusting heart.
I'm truly sorry you are confused. You are the only thing between Him and you.

 

[Danoh]

I confess that that would be me, with the understanding that Paul was talking only about the plight of the new man physically trapped until death with the old man [the believer's state], not who he really was as a new creation in Christ [the believer's standing].

That state is shared by all believers just as surely as our standing in Him is. Are we supposed to live in that state as if that's all we are? NO. But for now, that is where we are, physically...tied to flesh while seated with Christ (Rom 7:25, Rom 6:11, Gal 5:1).

I kind of agree with that...with a slight difference...

Paul's plight, his sense of condemnation in his failure there, is his sense of that from within where that takes place.

Not from within the new man's perspective, but from within the old; from within the fleshly mind's perspective.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

How so? In the sense that...

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Try as he might, he only experienced his own effort in his own strength not able to please God; could only "come short."

He needed to get out of the perspective from which he was looking at and working at things from.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Solution?

"Okay boys and girls" some teachers begin their lesson in a new perspective with - "lets put on our thinking caps and see if we cannot work these things out..."

The solution is the focused awareness on the fact that...

"...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" Romans 7:25.

The solution is in understanding the reality of the duality the Believer is both left with, and enabled to...overcome by the Spirit...

The dual reality that...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[God's Truth]

You don't earn Jesus or His strength by your efforts. He is received by faith and grace in a contrite trusting heart.
I'm truly sorry you are confused. You are the only thing between Him and you.

You are badly mistaken not knowing me or the scriptures.

The faith alone you believe and preach is dead and cannot save anyone; see James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

That dead faith you preach is not the most important kind of faith known...it is DEAD.

You misunderstand Paul. Peter says that people misunderstand Paul, and then he warns us to obey; see 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

You go against the scriptures that say Jesus saves those who obey.

Why do you do that? Do you know that people are ensnared by Satan to do his will? Tell me, what better job for Satan than telling people they are saved by faith and no obedience?

You are not blessed as family and friend unless you obey Jesus.

So then, how do you think you were blessed by having faith without anything else?

Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.


Tell me, how do you ever get that Jesus is your family and friend if you did not first do what he says and repent of your sins?

How do you ever get that Jesus will live inside you and make his home with you if you did not obey and repent?

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

 

[musterion]

I kind of agree with that...with a slight difference...

Paul's plight, his sense of condemnation in his failure there, is his sense of that from within where that takes place.

Not from within the new man's perspective, but from within the old; from within the fleshly mind's perspective.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

How so? In the sense that...

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Try as he might, he only experienced his own effort in his own strength not able to please God; could only "come short."

He needed to get out of the perspective from which he was looking at and working at things from.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Solution?

"Okay boys and girls" some teachers begin their lesson in a new perspective with - "lets put on our thinking caps and see if we cannot work these things out..."

The solution is the focused awareness on the fact that...

"...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" Romans 7:25.

The solution is in understanding the reality of the duality the Believer is both left with, and enabled to...overcome by the Spirit...

The dual reality that...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Sorry, I don't see the old man loathing himself (that's what your analysis would amount to) and lamenting a constant, contrary, indwelling lack of holiness he doesn't even want.

It's a clumsy analogy but it's like a computer with two competing operating systems vying for control of the whole unit. That struggle makes complete sense when each OS hates and wars with the other. Indeed, it makes sense only if both are struggling for control.

But if there is only one operating system in the unit...the original corrupted, unsalvageable one that is forever at enmity with its Creator...the struggle in Romans 7, much less the desire to be uncorrupted [holy], won't exist. It simply is not within the old OS's capacity to feel what Paul describes, as it's quite content in its corruption.

 

[Danoh]

The religious system is one of self-loathing. All are based on the Law.

Itself a system of sack cloth and ashes.

Not exactly a very comfortable way of going about one's day.

 

[musterion]

There is no place for self loathing when one reckons upon who, and Whose, he now is in Christ, and by faith starts to view himself as God views him in the Son. That is something only the saved may do.

“Have you ever thought of the Father dealing with you not as to what you are in yourself [in your flesh], but as to where He has positioned you in His Son? Have you ever thought that it is the affections of the Father’s heart which flow down to us where we are, seeing us in the Son, not in our poor wretched selves? What we are in the old man is not the thing to scan, but what we are, and where we are, in the Son; and what there is in the living affections of the Father, who has raised us up together with His Son, and has given us all heavenly blessings in Him.” -G.V.W.

 

[glorydaz]

As believers we are dead to the dominion of sin, to the dominion of the Law, and even to the dominion of death. That is the liberty we have in Christ Jesus.

Many are zealous and attempt to follow the law by their own efforts. They may not admit it but they know that they are unable to do what they would want. And they keep doing those things they don't want. Many give up even trying....they are wretched. They may serve the law of God with their minds, but they serve the law of sin with their flesh.

That's why I think Paul is showing (in chapter 7) so concisely that the law can never sanctify. It only brings out sinfulness and man's need for a Saviour. That, after all, is the law's purpose.

 

[Danoh]

Yep :thumb:

 

[musterion]

Galatians 5:13 (DNT) You for to freedom were invited, brethren; only not the freedom for an occasion the flesh, but through the love be you subservient to each other.

Galatians 5:16-18 (DNT) I say but; by spirit walk you, and a desire of flesh not you should fulfil. The for flesh desires against the spirit, the and spirit again the flesh; these and to each other are opposed, so that not the things you would wish, these you should do.
If, but, by spirit you be led, NOT YOU ARE UNDER LAW.

Same exact struggle as described in Rom 7.

Once again it's addressing and describing only those who are Christ's, not those who are not. How can we know that? Because only those who are His have died to Law and so are not under Law (Rom 6:14). Only those who are His now have a spirit which can resist the flesh...meaning the old nature...and which the flesh can resist.

But Paul never says the believer cannot give occasion to the flesh...meaning the old nature. That's his point above and why he exhorts just the opposite. Because the desires of the flesh (the old nature) are still very much there within us until these bodies are redeemed.

Yet in Gal 5:16 it's a given that, because of the spirit, the believer won't want to consistently give occasion to the flesh, which is why it's depicted as internal warfare in Rom 7.

He's talking to believers, about believers, including himself.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

You are badly mistaken not knowing me or the scriptures.

The faith alone you believe and preach is dead and cannot save anyone; see James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

That dead faith you preach is not the most important kind of faith known...it is DEAD.

You misunderstand Paul. Peter says that people misunderstand Paul, and then he warns us to obey; see 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

You go against the scriptures that say Jesus saves those who obey.

Why do you do that? Do you know that people are ensnared by Satan to do his will? Tell me, what better job for Satan than telling people they are saved by faith and no obedience?

You are not blessed as family and friend unless you obey Jesus.

So then, how do you think you were blessed by having faith without anything else?

Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.


Tell me, how do you ever get that Jesus is your family and friend if you did not first do what he says and repent of your sins?

How do you ever get that Jesus will live inside you and make his home with you if you did not obey and repent?

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Exactly. You can not get Jesus without repentance. Which is a humble contrite heart that needs Jesus, His forgiveness, His love, His power, His presence to live the way He intends in a close intimate relationship with Him, that naturally by the presence of God loves the way God loves. It begins with repentance. Humility. Any righteouness we could possibly muster up is filthy rags without Him.